Troops CR too low?


Reign of Winter


Troops are CR 11, taking this table:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation

they have slightly higher HP, slightly lower AC, ok saves, good save DC for CR11.

But their damage is off the charts, they can create 4 6d10+6 lines a 12d6 blast per full-round action and +22 in meele. That is about 114 average dam or CR 19. Ok, evasion helps against 92 of that damage, but even with improved evasion its 68 dam per round or CR 15.


For comparison 2 troops facing each other, fight only for 2 rounds before one is dispersed. That is quite unusual.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given how most monster at the CRs described are just cannon fodder, I highly welcome something more difficult for PC's to face.


I just realized, i should use spoiler

troop variants:

and i made dam 10 to high 6d10+6 is just 39 and not 49, 12d6 is 42 and 4d6+8 is 22. So its 103 dam and 63 dam.

The machine gun variant adds 18 ref 21 halfed dam per round as swift action. So its 121 dam and 72 dam.

The flamethrower variant adds 16 ref 21 halfed fire dam + 2d6 catch fire as swift action. So its 119 dam and 71 dam with probably effective +4 from average catch fire dam, so 123 and 75.

The mortar variant adds 21 ref 21 half dam as swift action (though with minimum range requirement). So its 124 and 74.

That is all probably less dangerous than an advanced troop (which would mean +2 and DCs and +4 on AC), so CR of machine gun, flamethrower and mortar, all being CR+1, is probably less off than standard troop CR.

The chemical variant replaces 12d6 with 3d6 acid without ref and adds a fort 22 nauseated and blind for 1d4+1 rounds. So its "just" 72 dam and 53 dam. But i would consider that more dangerous, because nauseated and blind is nasty debuff. And the chems mights use it every round.

All damages by the way are single target, each troop version could deal that dam to all party members depending on chars relative positions. Looks dangerous for wizards and sorcs.

All in all, if most CR 11 and 12 monsters would be like that, i would expect quite some TPKs.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not likely at this level.


magnuskn wrote:
Not likely at this level.

I was assuming, that such CR 11 monsters were the norm, so that lev 10 party faces them often.

Lev 10 party kick in door, russian rifle behind. If troops last to their full round action, its 100 damage for every party member, except monks. Why shouldnt that make TPKs likely?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Except that the party begins the module at level 13.


That does not change that the CR is off. If a CR 11 monster is kick in the door close to TPK vs lev 10, the CR does not fit well.

And i am talking about comparison to other CR 11. The ones i checked look a lot preferable to rifle troops.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

CR's have always been an imperfect measurement. Sometimes you get high CR monster which are a pushover to anybody who can cast Fly, sometimes you get things which really are too good. Troops could well fall into the latter category, sure.

But invoking "TPK" is absurd, a level 10 party normally can and will obliterate even way harder encounters than their appropiate CR. Of course if you catch them with their pants down things can look considerably worse off, but that is the case for every monster.


Cloud giant https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/human oids/giants/giant-true/giant-cloud
catching a lev 10 party with pants off, meaning giant has free surprise round and wins ini:
+22 +22/+17/+12 4d6+18 = 1 PC gets 90-120 dam -> maybe 1 PC done

rifle troop same:
12d10+12+12d6 = low ref PCs get 90-110 dam, high ref PCs 72-92 dam -> arcane caster out of action, all PCs below 50% health.

Shadow Lodge

carn wrote:

rifle troop same:

12d10+12+12d6 = low ref PCs get 90-110 dam, high ref PCs 72-92 dam -> arcane caster out of action, all PCs below 50% health.

An ideal threatening situation, no?

Liberty's Edge

A CR 11 Adult Black Dragon can easily manage equivalent damage to that to one PC, or lesser damage to the whole PC group (21-42)...while also having AC 32-36, SR 22, more HP, and what amounts to an aura of concealment.

A level 12 Sorcerer, meanwhile, can alpha-strike for something like 24d6+24 (98 damage, 49 on successful saves) with, say, Cone of Cold + Cold Ice Strike at similar Save DCs (24 or 25, I can calculate easily)

So, as a CR 11, the Troop seems to have really good area-effect damage...but it lacks the ridiculous options a high-level Sorcerer, or the defenses of a dragon...or, really, several of the potential options of other creatures at that level.


Not to mention its vulnerability to AoE spells like Fireball, which do an additional 50% damage to them. Considering they ARE a group... in a 20x20 area... and it's probable the first thing players will do is drop a Fireball or the like on them. Or Cloudkill, which will have a limited effect but can still cause some damage if I remember correctly.


CR 11 Adult Black Dragon gets one improved vital strike bite and 1 full round, thats about 73 dam.

No, he doesnt get his line attack vs all 4, because if situation is setup that ideal, the rifle troop gets also his melee attack and then its 3 or 4 of 4 PCs dead after surpise and 1 action.

Sorc yes, matches or tops that damage output, but has a lot less HP and can be threatened or grappled to avoid casting. And no, i do not look at the situation with preparation because then master summoner always wins by casting all his daily summons prior combat, does not even have to show his own face.

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