Bard Instrument-Tuning Fork

[Cyrus007]

Hi,

Is it PS legal to buy or have crafted a masterwork Tuning Fork that modifies the Oratory performance skill? As it stands now, you can only purchase masterwork instruments that boost you musical performance skills, e.g., Wind, Percussion, String, Keyboard.

Thank you.

[Ryan Richter]

I would think a tuning fork would modify singing if anything.

Maybe a medievil megaphone?

[LazarX]

Cyrus007 wrote:

Hi,

Is it PS legal to buy or have crafted a masterwork Tuning Fork that modifies the Oratory performance skill? As it stands now, you can only purchase masterwork instruments that boost you musical performance skills, e.g., Wind, Percussion, String, Keyboard.

Thank you.

I wouldn't allow it on my table as I see absolutely no basis for it.

[Jiggy]

If you can find it as a legal item in a listed Additional Resource, you're golden. If not, it doesn't exist.

[Dominick]

Well, there is the generic 50gp Masterwork tool, for a +2 bonus on any skill check.

A megaphone was known since antiquity, there's an easy oratory item. Depending on your shtick, it could be build into a mask, held on a pole, or even strapped to your head.

Other oratory items could be makeup, an easel with cards, or whatever you think fits your pathfinder society character.

Hmmm maybe I need to roll up Kraftwork the bard with dozens of tuning forks...

[nosig]

If it weighs a pound, costs 50gp and you tell me when you are using it, I'd give you a +2 circumstance bonus for a Masterwork tool - but as Dominick Trascritti points out, it might be something other than a tuning fork.
The rules for Masterwork tool are kind of generic, and this would fall in them I would think. Realize that a circumstance bonus is under the control of the Judge (he gives it or not depending on circumstances after all), and please be sure to mention it when you intend to use it and I'd think your golden.

but that is just my opinion

[LazarX]

Dominick Trascritti wrote:

Well, there is the generic 50gp Masterwork tool, for a +2 bonus on any skill check.

A megaphone was known since antiquity, there's an easy oratory item. Depending on your shtick, it could be build into a mask, held on a pole, or even strapped to your head.

Other oratory items could be makeup, an easel with cards, or whatever you think fits your pathfinder society character.

Hmmm maybe I need to roll up Kraftwork the bard with dozens of tuning forks...

The notation for that item also notes that it's not neccessarily possible to come up with a generic tool for every single possible skill in every situation. Especially when you're not dealing with a Munchkin-Friendly GM.

[Cyrus007]

Thank you all for the the input. A Tuning Fork was an arbitrary example of something that could modify the Oratory performance skill. Many people gave better examples, but any more advice would be helpful. However, the generic masterwork tool seems the way to go.

Thanks again.

[nosig]

LazarX wrote:

Dominick Trascritti wrote:

Well, there is the generic 50gp Masterwork tool, for a +2 bonus on any skill check.

A megaphone was known since antiquity, there's an easy oratory item. Depending on your shtick, it could be build into a mask, held on a pole, or even strapped to your head.

Other oratory items could be makeup, an easel with cards, or whatever you think fits your pathfinder society character.

Hmmm maybe I need to roll up Kraftwork the bard with dozens of tuning forks...

The notation for that item also notes that it's not neccessarily possible to come up with a generic tool for every single possible skill in every situation. Especially when you're not dealing with a Munchkin-Friendly GM.

you had me up to the last sentence....

I can often come up with a Masterwork tool for a skill when the player cannot.
Player: "Well, I paid for a MW tool for Bluff just for this, but I have no idea what it is...."
Judge (Me): "you pull out the black leather folded case and flip it open to the Hellknight Badge to back up your statement. This gives you a +2 circumstance bonus added to your 23... The Cheliax guards salute and say 'glad to have you here sir! hope you get it sorted out soon, and we'll just be moving on our way now..." you carefully place the badge back in the case (weight 1 lb.) with the other wallets holding badges for Eagle Knights, Osirian Secret Service, Qadirian Security, etc

[SCPRedMage]

nosig wrote:

you had me up to the last sentence....

I can often come up with a Masterwork tool for a skill when the player cannot.
Player: "Well, I paid for a MW tool for Bluff just for this, but I have no idea what it is...."
Judge (Me): "you pull out the black leather folded case and flip it open to the Hellknight Badge to back up your statement. This gives you a +2 circumstance bonus added to your 23... The Cheliax guards salute and say 'glad to have you here sir! hope you get it sorted out soon, and we'll just be moving on our way now..." you carefully place the badge back in the case (weight 1 lb.) with the other wallets holding badges for Eagle Knights, Osirian Secret Service, Qadirian Security, etc

Except for the part where those would be separate items (each badge, that is), and the part where those only help with VERY specific uses of the Bluff skill (which is as it should; the UE update to MW tools states that some skills simply don't have MW tools that cover ALL uses of the skill).

[nosig]

SCPRedMage wrote:

nosig wrote:

you had me up to the last sentence....

I can often come up with a Masterwork tool for a skill when the player cannot.
Player: "Well, I paid for a MW tool for Bluff just for this, but I have no idea what it is...."
Judge (Me): "you pull out the black leather folded case and flip it open to the Hellknight Badge to back up your statement. This gives you a +2 circumstance bonus added to your 23... The Cheliax guards salute and say 'glad to have you here sir! hope you get it sorted out soon, and we'll just be moving on our way now..." you carefully place the badge back in the case (weight 1 lb.) with the other wallets holding badges for Eagle Knights, Osirian Secret Service, Qadirian Security, etc

Except for the part where those would be separate items (each badge, that is), and the part where those only help with VERY specific uses of the Bluff skill (which is as it should; the UE update to MW tools states that some skills simply don't have MW tools that cover ALL uses of the skill).

Except that this is in the realm of a Judges call - as are all circumstance bonuses.

The player says - "My PC has a Masterwork tool for the skill Bluff. I spent the 50gp, and I'm tracking the 1 lb. weight. The write up says a Masterwork tool 'is the perfict tool for the job' and I have no personal experience with Bluff - so what would that tool be? And does it apply in this circumstance?"
Now, I as a judge have a choice. I can rule against the player and say something like, "...you're not dealing with a Munchkin-Friendly GM." and not give him the +2 he worked to get, or I can reward his effort and teach him something about role playing and thinking on his feet and supply what that bonus comes from.
I normally choise to play with the player rather than against, and I don't consider myself a "Munchkin-Friendly GM". which is why I said "you had me up to the last sentence....".

Oh, and as to "those would be separate items (each badge, that is)," - do you consider each tool in a Masterwork Thieves Tools to be a separate item? or each piece of a Disguise Kit? or each piton in a Climbers Kit? The "Documents of Authority" kit for +2 on Bluff.... sounds like it would work to me. And after all, in the example above, I'm the judge. ;)

[pathar]

nosig wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Dominick Trascritti wrote:

Well, there is the generic 50gp Masterwork tool, for a +2 bonus on any skill check.

A megaphone was known since antiquity, there's an easy oratory item. Depending on your shtick, it could be build into a mask, held on a pole, or even strapped to your head.

Other oratory items could be makeup, an easel with cards, or whatever you think fits your pathfinder society character.

Hmmm maybe I need to roll up Kraftwork the bard with dozens of tuning forks...

The notation for that item also notes that it's not neccessarily possible to come up with a generic tool for every single possible skill in every situation. Especially when you're not dealing with a Munchkin-Friendly GM.

you had me up to the last sentence....

I can often come up with a Masterwork tool for a skill when the player cannot.
Player: "Well, I paid for a MW tool for Bluff just for this, but I have no idea what it is...."
Judge (Me): "you pull out the black leather folded case and flip it open to the Hellknight Badge to back up your statement. This gives you a +2 circumstance bonus added to your 23... The Cheliax guards salute and say 'glad to have you here sir! hope you get it sorted out soon, and we'll just be moving on our way now..." you carefully place the badge back in the case (weight 1 lb.) with the other wallets holding badges for Eagle Knights, Osirian Secret Service, Qadirian Security, etc

Slightly psychic paper?

[nosig]

pathar wrote:

nosig wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Dominick Trascritti wrote:

Well, there is the generic 50gp Masterwork tool, for a +2 bonus on any skill check.

A megaphone was known since antiquity, there's an easy oratory item. Depending on your shtick, it could be build into a mask, held on a pole, or even strapped to your head.

Other oratory items could be makeup, an easel with cards, or whatever you think fits your pathfinder society character.

Hmmm maybe I need to roll up Kraftwork the bard with dozens of tuning forks...

The notation for that item also notes that it's not neccessarily possible to come up with a generic tool for every single possible skill in every situation. Especially when you're not dealing with a Munchkin-Friendly GM.

you had me up to the last sentence....

I can often come up with a Masterwork tool for a skill when the player cannot.
Player: "Well, I paid for a MW tool for Bluff just for this, but I have no idea what it is...."
Judge (Me): "you pull out the black leather folded case and flip it open to the Hellknight Badge to back up your statement. This gives you a +2 circumstance bonus added to your 23... The Cheliax guards salute and say 'glad to have you here sir! hope you get it sorted out soon, and we'll just be moving on our way now..." you carefully place the badge back in the case (weight 1 lb.) with the other wallets holding badges for Eagle Knights, Osirian Secret Service, Qadirian Security, etc

Slightly psychic paper?

LOL! yeah, that would work. As long as it cost 50gp and weighs 1 lb... and you tracked it on your PC. That would fly at my table. And we could really RP it up. (Here's hoping the +2 makes the roll for you...)

[Pirate Rob]

nosig wrote:

pathar wrote:

Slightly psychic paper?

LOL! yeah, that would work. As long as it cost 50gp and weighs 1 lb... and you tracked it on your PC. That would fly at my table. And we could really RP it up. (Here's hoping the +2 makes the roll for you...)

It of course wouldn't work at my table, due to being magical rather than masterwork.

[pathar]

Pirate Rob wrote:

nosig wrote:

pathar wrote:

Slightly psychic paper?

LOL! yeah, that would work. As long as it cost 50gp and weighs 1 lb... and you tracked it on your PC. That would fly at my table. And we could really RP it up. (Here's hoping the +2 makes the roll for you...)

It of course wouldn't work at my table, due to being magical rather than masterwork.

MASTERWORK psychic paper, then.

[Pirate Rob]

I'm saying the masterwork tools do not feature any magic, they are mundane but well made and appropriate for the task.

There is no such thing as mundane psychic paper, it requires magic.

[The Morphling]

Pirate Rob wrote:

nosig wrote:

pathar wrote:

Slightly psychic paper?

LOL! yeah, that would work. As long as it cost 50gp and weighs 1 lb... and you tracked it on your PC. That would fly at my table. And we could really RP it up. (Here's hoping the +2 makes the roll for you...)

It of course wouldn't work at my table, due to being magical rather than masterwork.

It's only slightly magical. :P

[nosig]

Pirate Rob wrote:

I'm saying the masterwork tools do not feature any magic, they are mundane but well made and appropriate for the task.

There is no such thing as mundane psychic paper, it requires magic.

wow... then I can use the tool kit from a Vest of Escape and a Masterwork Thieves tools together? One is a Magice Lockpick, the other is just normal Masterwork?

Wait... aren't all magic items also Masterwork?

[pathar]

Pirate Rob wrote:

There is no such thing as mundane psychic paper, it requires magic.

Don't be absurd. It's not magical, it's psychic.

[nosig]

pathar wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

There is no such thing as mundane psychic paper, it requires magic.

Don't be absurd. It's not magical, it's psychic.

I get the image of a back ally transaction here.

<,<
>,>
"psst, hay buddy, u wanna buy some psychic papers?"

[Chris Mortika]

The campaign leadership have already suggested that, since very few people are abusing the Masterwork Tools (picking 30 tools for 30 skills, each costing 50 gp ...) GMs should err on the side of allowing them.

Read into that what you will.

I'm pretty generous about them at my table, but, unlike nosig, I require the player to come up with the justification, and I'm likely to restrict it. I can see a masterwork tool for detecting forgeries with Linguistics. I can see a masterwork tool for deciphering a page of text. If you can't give me a mundane, finely-made tool that does both, you need to decide which yours does.

[Lab_Rat]

Please remember that the generic tool must be more restrictive than just any X skill check

Ex:
MW book on Plants and Fauna. Allows you a+2 Comp bonus to knowledge Nature checks to identify plants/plant based monsters.

MW magnifying glass. Allows a +2 Comp bonus on perception checks to find hidden things within a 5 ft square of study.

The only exception to the restrictive nature are MW tools that have charges (healing/disguise kit). These work on ALL X skill checks but have a limited use.

[nosig]

Actually, I have never had a problem with anyone who buys one NOT having some idea what they have. Some type of a "justification" or discription or something. The hypothetical example above was for some beginner who had no idea how the item worked. Kind of like when someone is building a PC and turns to the "Old Gamer" and says - "what they heck would a Masterwork Tool for Perception be?" and then I'd offer suggestions. If I happen to be the judge at the table, I'd still offer the newbie a suggestion or two.

The only real issue I have had with MW tools is the one I've had sense Season 1. I think the player should say something like "Using my tool, I have a XX". He should mention the masterwork tool when he's getting the bonus, and I think many people do not. So the judge never knows it's added in.

My PCs often have a MW tool, and I try always let the judge know I'm useing one, (and what it is). That way he can say "doesn't apply in this case" - after all, he's the judge of the circumstances of the check... and the bonus they add is a circumstance bonus.

[nosig]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Please remember that the generic tool must be more restrictive than just any X skill check

Ex:
MW book on Plants and Fauna. Allows you a+2 Comp bonus to knowledge Nature checks to identify plants/plant based monsters.

MW magnifying glass. Allows a +2 Comp bonus on perception checks to find hidden things within a 5 ft square of study.

The only exception to the restrictive nature are MW tools that have charges (healing/disguise kit). These work on ALL X skill checks but have a limited use.

This sounds great... but I don't remember ever seeing anything like this in RAW.

Does this mean that a MW Thieves Tools should only give a bonus on keyed locks or something? It is basicly a set of Thieves tools, with a MW bonus and weight added...

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Ultimate Equipment, which is the mist recent and updated. Gotta use that not CRB. Even though it isn't core assumption. Don't have UE can't use masterwork tools, sorry.

[Chris Mortika]

Back up with that, Andrew.

So, a masterwork tool that was good before Ultimate Equipment came out, is no longer good, unless the player brings the appropriate pages of UE to the table?

If the player doesn't have UE, can she at least sell off the now-useless purchase for full price?

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

This discussion has come up before. I don't have a good answer for how to handle non core assumption material that changes rules that we must abide by, and if the player doesn't have the book. Mike Brock will have to answer that one.

[Dominick]

If a guy has spent 50gp, tracks the weight, and role plays it up, it could be the "Big Book of Tall Tales to Tell Hell Knights" for the +2 bonus.

The role play it up is the pound of flesh. :-D

[Lab_Rat]

nosig wrote:

This sounds great... but I don't remember ever seeing anything like this in RAW.

From UE:

" The tool should either have a limited number of uses (such as the disguise and healer’s kits) or only apply to certain aspects of the skill
(such as the balancing pole’s bonus on Acrobatics checks to traverse a narrow surface or the magnifying glass’s bonus on Appraise checks for detailed items)."

nosig wrote:

Does this mean that a MW Thieves Tools should only give a bonus on keyed locks or something? It is basicly a set of Thieves tools, with a MW bonus and weight added...

I think some MW tools, including MW Thieves tools, are grandfathered in. UE didn't change anything about them.

[nosig]

Thanks LabRat!
Learned something today... I'll try to drag out my UE when I get home and re-read that chapter, as plainly I miss things.

[Peachbottom]

I think the benefit of not needing hands free to perform oratory or singing performances balances out against the benefit that can be gained from a masterwork item that requires one or two hands to use.

[Kyle Baird]

As a GM, you're well within your rights to apply a +2 bonus to anything for any reason. Stop trying to be so damn rigid and allow the table to have FUN playing the GAME.