Caster level and spelllike abilities for "Arcane Strike Combat Feat"

[Der Origami Mann]

I take the Lantern Bearer Prestige Class and get spellike abilities from it.

Quote:

(...) The Lantern Bearer's caster level for these effects is equal to her character level (...)

If I would take Arcane Strike - does the caster-Lvl for this spellike abilities count for this feat?

[blackbloodtroll]

You need to first answer this question.

[Der Origami Mann]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You need to first answer this question.

(...) With the new FAQ on Spell like abilities, this needs to be answered.
Are Spell-like abilities considered Arcane, or Divine?
What is the formula for figuring this out? (...)

I think the lantern bearer is a elven culture Divine Class.

[blackbloodtroll]

Der Origami Mann wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You need to first answer this question.

(...) With the new FAQ on Spell like abilities, this needs to be answered.
Are Spell-like abilities considered Arcane, or Divine?
What is the formula for figuring this out? (...)

I think the lantern bearer is a elven culture Divine Class.

That is irrelevant.

[Der Origami Mann]

Hmm, do you mean this:

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

"No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items."
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/22/11

= spellike ability is not a caster lvl prequesite

[Are]

What he means is that Arcane Strike specifies "ability to cast arcane spells". There are no rules for if an SLA is arcane or divine, the way there are for spells (each spellcasting class specifies if they cast arcane spells or divine spells).

So until there's a clarification on whether SLAs count as arcane/divine at all, the safest assumption is that they're neither and thus can't be used to qualify for the Arcane Strike feat.

[blackbloodtroll]

Exactly.

You can't even take the feat unless you can cast Arcane spells.

So, that is why it is asked "Are Spell-like abilities Arcane or Divine?"

[ZanThrax]

Sean specifically said that the SLAs from minor magic qualify for Arcane Strike. How are we back to saying that they don't?

[Are]

Because of all the consequences of what he said, like early access to PrCs. Essentially, several people don't think that response was particularly well thought through.

Plus, a few forum posts aren't a proper subtitute for a FAQ/errata when you change how a part of the game works, so many people prefer to wait for such a FAQ/errata on the "SLAs being arcane/divine" subject.

[blackbloodtroll]

You could always follow the above link, and hit the FAQ button.

[IejirIsk]

i remember reading somewhere, that sla were arcane, but... have no general CL (each ability has its own) and SLA != spells.

[Drachasor]

"Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained."

From this description, it certainly seems like a spell in almost all respects. Metamagic Rods would work with spell-like abilities...but they explicitly say they don't (at least on the SRD).

Interestingly enough, the level of a spell-like ability is not well defined if it is based on a spell. Technically, based on the above, I believe spell-like abilities should be given a class spell-list reference to indicate what level they are.

But it certainly seems from these rules you should treat them EXACTLY like spell. So casting them is spell-casting.

Probably we need errata saying how to determine the level of a Spell-like ability (maybe a list order Wizard/Sorc->Cleric->Druid->unique). And also a line that says "spell-like abilities, unless otherwise noted, do not fulfill pre-requisites for Prestige Classes". I think allowing them to work for feats should be ok.

[Forseti]

There's one major thing that does distinguish spell-like abilities from spells: one is called a "spell-like ability" and the other is called "spell".

I've always found it very obvious that that distinction alone is what makes spell-like abilities not count as spells for the sake of prerequisites, when the prerequisites explicitly ask for spells or spellcasting ability.

I agree that there are situations where spell-like abilities can stand in for spells, for example, being able to use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability would fulfil the requirement of being able to use Dimension Door, if there's no explicit requirement to be able to cast it as a spell. But having every spell-like ability that mimics a spell count a being able to cast spells, that just doesn't sit very well with me.

Looking forward to see more dev input on this issue.

[Artanthos]

Are wrote:

Because of all the consequences of what he said, like early access to PrCs. Essentially, several people don't think that response was particularly well thought through.

The same argument can be (and has been) made regarding the spell combat FAQ but we still abide by it.

The FAQ and following clarification by SKR allows a character with SLA's to qualify for arcane strike. That is the current RAW. You can feel free to ignore or house rule as you wish in your home games, but this is the rules forum.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

ZanThrax wrote:

Does this mean that a Rogue with Minor Magic does qualify for Arcane Strike then?

ZanThrax, yes (we almost included that as an example in the FAQ answer).

[Are]

I'm aware of both of those, Artanthos.

I have no problem with the FAQ. I didn't expect that ruling, but I don't have a problem with it.

The follow-up post, however, is different. The reason being that it says that SLAs can count as arcane, which suggests either that they're all arcane, or that some can be divine, without giving any information on how to figure that out for each individual SLA. That's one reason it needs to be added to the FAQ, or to an errata, so that kind of information can be added.

Also, without the follow-up post existing, I would never have imagined that it could be true (since SLAs being arcane/divine doesn't follow from the FAQ). Which alone is reason enough that it should be in the FAQ or in an errata, since most people who read the FAQ won't be aware of the post.

[Artanthos]

I agree that a follow-up FAQ is needed to clarify the Arcane/Divine confusion.

[blackbloodtroll]

Artanthos wrote:

I agree that a follow-up FAQ is needed to clarify the Arcane/Divine confusion.

Visit this thread, and hit FAQ.