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Okay, first off, I'm going to take a wild guess that this question has been answered before, but I have searched the forums to the best of my ability and I have been unable to find a direct answer.
I have a PC in my game that wishes to craft a Handy Haversack. Said PC is 8th level, and therefore does not meet the CL of the item. In addition, since they're 8th level, they do not have Secret Chest. At first glance, the answer would appear to be "No," and the player is actually okay with that.
However, the more I read the rules, the more confused I get...
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Okay, that's straightforward enough. DC for a Handy Haversack would be DC 14 (5 + 9).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
This is where I start getting confused. The prerequisites for a Handy Haversack are Craft Wondrous, and Secret Chest.
The PC has Craft Wondrous (which is always required), but does not have Secret Chest.
This paragraph suggests that they can get around not knowing the spell by taking a +5 to the DC. So the DC would be DC 19 (5 + 9 + 5). However, under Craft Wondrous Items...
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Okay, that seems to take me back to "No, you can't create the item, because you don't have the spell." If that's the case, what's the point of the previous section on raising the DC if you don't meet the prerequisites?
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Okay, this part is reasonably clear... the CL would need to be 9 because of Secret Chest. You wouldn't be able to craft it at a lower caster level.
So, I guess my question is whether I am reading this correctly and the player can not, in fact, make a Handy Haversack because they lack the spell necessary?
If the answer to the above question is yes, what is the point of the section on increasing the Spellcraft check when you don't have all of the prerequisites?
Also, if they're not actually required, why are they even called prerequisites?
Check the Core Rulebook FAQ.
The only requirement you cannot ignore is that you must have the feat. You must also have a place to work and you must also spend the gold up front, but those aren't generally referred to as "requirements" so much as simply "rules".
All other requirements, including the spell, can be ignored, so your crafter does not need Secret Chest and he does not need to be CL 9, but those are two requirements he is missing so each one causes a +5 increase to the DC.
They are prerequisites in the sense that you MUST have them if you want to craft your item at the normal crafting DC, but you can choose to increase the DC if you want to skip the prerequisites.
So if your level 8 crafter can hit the DC 24 to craft this item, he should be allowed to try. Of course, it's always up to the GM whether or not he wants to allow the PC to create any items, but if the GM is unwilling to let the crafter make what he wants, that should be discussed before the crafter grabs any crafting feats in the first place.
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Ok, the basic answer is this:
Your player can create the haversack. The construction DC is 19:
5+CL(9)+5 for missing prereq (spell). That's it. The caster level of an item only sets the basic creation DC and the difficulty for dispel magic and the like to affect the finished item. It is in no way a prerequisite for crafting the item.
The paragraphs you are quoting explain what the phrase "meeting the prerequisites" means. You meet the spell requirements if you can expend that spell (or otherwise have it provided) during each day of the crafting. If you can't provide the spell each day, add 5 to the crafting DC. It's that simple. It's not meant to be tough for PCs to craft items.
Calling them prerequisites is a legacy from 3.5, where they were mandatory but there was no way to fail the creation of an item.
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Ok, the basic answer is this:
Your player can create the haversack. The construction DC is 19:
5+CL(9)+5 for missing prereq (spell). That's it. The caster level of an item only sets the basic creation DC and the difficulty for dispel magic and the like to affect the finished item. It is in no way a prerequisite for crafting the item.The paragraphs you are quoting explain what the phrase "meeting the prerequisites" means. You meet the spell requirements if you can expend that spell (or otherwise have it provided) during each day of the crafting. If you can't provide the spell each day, add 5 to the crafting DC. It's that simple. It's not meant to be tough for PCs to craft items.
Calling them prerequisites is a legacy from 3.5, where they were mandatory but there was no way to fail the creation of an item.
Okay, I follow all of that... but it also states under Craft Wondrous, that the item can't be crafted at a CL lower than what's needed to cast the spell. What does that actually mean in this case?
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Basically it just means that you shouldn't have an item that requires, say, heal, at caster level 3 for some reason. Generally it's easiest just to use the caster levels listed in the books and not mess with them until you're more comfortable playing around with the system. In theory you could reduce the caster levels of some items to make the crafting DC easier if you wanted; that rule is simply there to put a lower cap on it. I'm fairly certain some existing items violate that lower cap.
Ryric is right, the Caster Level prerequisite is only for items where the crafting prerequisite specifies a caster level, like the Amulet of Natural Armor. For all others, Caster Level is not even required.
Creating a caster level too low has no effect on continuous items like this, other than making them easier to dispel/suppress.
If they do use the spell in crafting, the minimum CL is the lowest level necessary to cast the spell, and the DC would only be 14. If they don't use the spell, the DC goes up to 19 but now there really is no minimum CL so they can make it whatever they want.
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Ryric is right, the Caster Level prerequisite is only for items where the crafting prerequisite specifies a caster level, like the Amulet of Natural Armor. For all others, Caster Level is not even required.
Creating a caster level too low has no effect on continuous items like this, other than making them easier to dispel/suppress.
If they do use the spell in crafting, the minimum CL is the lowest level necessary to cast the spell, and the DC would only be 14. If they don't use the spell, the DC goes up to 19 but now there really is no minimum CL so they can make it whatever they want.
So, by not having the spell in question, they could then make it as a CL 4 and therefore bypass the penalty for not having the prerequisite?! That hardly seems like RAI.
So, by not having the spell in question, they could then make it as a CL 4 and therefore bypass the penalty for not having the prerequisite?! That hardly seems like RAI.Ryric is right, the Caster Level prerequisite is only for items where the crafting prerequisite specifies a caster level, like the Amulet of Natural Armor. For all others, Caster Level is not even required.
Creating a caster level too low has no effect on continuous items like this, other than making them easier to dispel/suppress.
If they do use the spell in crafting, the minimum CL is the lowest level necessary to cast the spell, and the DC would only be 14. If they don't use the spell, the DC goes up to 19 but now there really is no minimum CL so they can make it whatever they want.
No, because Caster Level is not a prerequisite. It is, for a very few items. Amulet of Natural Armor and Amulet of Mighty Fists are two. I guess all armor and weapons, so that's not a "few". The rule is, if the PREREQUISITES section lists a caster level prerequisite, then you have to meet that minimum level or you have to increase the DC for missing the prerequisite. For all those items with no CL prerequisite, like the OP's Handy Haversack, there is no penalty for crafting it at a lower CR.
However, the general rule that the CL must be at least high enough to cast the prerequisite spell still applies - if you use the spell, then the item's CL cannot be lower than that spell requires. But if you don't use the spell during crafting, you don't have to worry about that rule, so the CL can be whatever you want. If the item has effects based on CL, like the duration of a potion or the dice of damage of a wand of lighting bolt, etc., then setting a lower CL creates a weaker item. But for a Handy Haversack, setting the lower CL has no impact on the haversack's features, although it is a little easier to dispel/suppress.
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However, the general rule that the CL must be at least high enough to cast the prerequisite spell still applies - if you use the spell, then the item's CL cannot be lower than that spell requires. But if you don't use the spell during crafting, you don't have to worry about that rule, so the CL can be whatever you want. If the item has effects based on CL, like the duration of a potion or the dice of damage of a wand of lighting bolt, etc., then setting a lower CL creates a weaker item. But for a Handy Haversack, setting the lower CL has no impact on the haversack's features, although it is a little easier to dispel/suppress.
This is the first time I see this interpretation.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
As I read it, crafting the item with a caster level at least matching the minimum caster level to cast the requisite spells is mandatory.
Lacking the CL don't add +5 to the crafting difficulty, but it set the minimum DC for crafting the item.|
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So, barring the costs involved (and given the time), this means that a 8th level Wizard with Skill Focus would be fully capable of crafting an Iron Flask...
Wizard in question has Spellcraft of 20 at 8th level. The DC for an Iron Flask would be 5 + CL 20 + 5 (doesn't have trap the soul) for a total of 30. Since the crafter "is not in immediate danger or distracted", they can take 10.
I suppose that's one good reason to enforce the new Crafting/Wealth by Level rule in Ultimate Campaign... to prevent the players being able to craft items that they probably shouldn't have been able to craft to begin with. *sigh*
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My group houseruled that the crafter, to make a magical item, should have a caster level sufficient to cast the spell is if was a wizard/cleric/druid or, only if the spell isn't available to those classes, the specific level needed to cast the spell as a member of another class.
And nuked from orbit the summoner spell list as a way to access spells to make magic items. It allow potions of greater invisibility, dimension door, lower cost potions and wands of haste, wands of teleport and other stuff.
So, barring the costs involved (and given the time), this means that a 8th level Wizard with Skill Focus would be fully capable of crafting an Iron Flask...
Wizard in question has Spellcraft of 20 at 8th level. The DC for an Iron Flask would be 5 + CL 20 + 5 (doesn't have trap the soul) for a total of 30. Since the crafter "is not in immediate danger or distracted", they can take 10.
I suppose that's one good reason to enforce the new Crafting/Wealth by Level rule in Ultimate Campaign... to prevent the players being able to craft items that they probably shouldn't have been able to craft to begin with. *sigh*
You are exactly correct.
Of course, said wizard would need 85,000 gp (the WBL table says that should be unobtainable until 12th level, and even then, it's generally assumed that most of his wealth, if he actually adventured to that level, is tied up in his adventuring gear) and he would need 170 days to construct the item.
If, as a GM, you're awarding your PCs enough wealth and enough free time to let an 8th level wizard create an Iron Flask, then yes, it would be possible for this to happen.
Frankly, I would be more worried if the same wizard created 170,000gp worth of wands, staves, headbands, rings, whatever, and outfitted himself like a one-man army with a dozen useful items. If he has this much cash and this much spent on magical items, he won't be encountering CR 8 monsters in my games, and the kind of encounters I would prepare for an 8th level wizard with 14th level gear would probably be around CR 12 or so, in which case, his one Iron Flask won't help him in every fight the way a dozen carefully selected items of the same total value would.
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So, barring the costs involved (and given the time), this means that a 8th level Wizard with Skill Focus would be fully capable of crafting an Iron Flask...
Wizard in question has Spellcraft of 20 at 8th level. The DC for an Iron Flask would be 5 + CL 20 + 5 (doesn't have trap the soul) for a total of 30. Since the crafter "is not in immediate danger or distracted", they can take 10.
I suppose that's one good reason to enforce the new Crafting/Wealth by Level rule in Ultimate Campaign... to prevent the players being able to craft items that they probably shouldn't have been able to craft to begin with. *sigh*
You are exactly correct.
Of course, said wizard would need 85,000 gp (the WBL table says that should be unobtainable until 12th level, and even then, it's generally assumed that most of his wealth, if he actually adventured to that level, is tied up in his adventuring gear) and he would need 170 days to construct the item.
If, as a GM, you're awarding your PCs enough wealth and enough free time to let an 8th level wizard create an Iron Flask, then yes, it would be possible for this to happen.
Frankly, I would be more worried if the same wizard created 170,000gp worth of wands, staves, headbands, rings, whatever, and outfitted himself like a one-man army with a dozen useful items. If he has this much cash and this much spent on magical items, he won't be encountering CR 8 monsters in my games, and the kind of encounters I would prepare for an 8th level wizard with 14th level gear would probably be around CR 12 or so, in which case, his one Iron Flask won't help him in every fight the way a dozen carefully selected items of the same total value would.
*nod* That was only an example, to be sure I was following things correctly. At a glance it was the highest level Wondrous item I could find that only needed one spell. If I were the crafter, I'd do the same thing... robes, staves, etc.
Like I said, it's a decent argument for enforcing WBL, if nothing else. And yeah, my PCs aren't going to see that sort of wealth at 7th level. They're actually pretty close to the WBL guidelines at the moment. I'm running the Legacy of Fire AP and I'm putting a long pause into the action before they visit Kakashon because once that lever is pulled they're kind of on a roller coaster for the rest of the adventure. Time is the problem for them at this point, not cash.
I do like Diego's house rule, and I may go that route in my next campaign. That and I'd never really noticed the potential crafting issue with the Summoner before (my current game is Core Book classes only).
I am not home right now to check, but doesn't Ultimate Campaign state that you always use the cleric/wizard spell list to determine spell level and caster level for all spells on those lists that also appear on other lists? I'm sure I read that, somewhere, in the last week or two so I'm assuming it's there.
If I'm remembering correctly, that then means it's now an official rule and nobody needs Diego's orbital nuclear bombardment ("it's the only way to be sure"), but I can't confirm that right now.
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I am not home right now to check, but doesn't Ultimate Campaign state that you always use the cleric/wizard spell list to determine spell level and caster level for all spells on those lists that also appear on other lists? I'm sure I read that, somewhere, in the last week or two so I'm assuming it's there.
If I'm remembering correctly, that then means it's now an official rule and nobody needs Diego's orbital nuclear bombardment ("it's the only way to be sure"), but I can't confirm that right now.
FPS do it that way for the pricing, but I don't see anything in Ultimate Campaign saying that.