I'll apologize in advance for the wall of text.
Hmmm. So I was in another thread that was talking about quelling overpowered casters and someone recommended SKR's Hellenic Sorceress, which is a class SKR built specifically for the purpose of making an unprepared caster thats less powerful than normal for those 'low magic campaigns' that seem to be so popular on these threads...
That's not my purpose, but it did raise an interesting thought. Right now i'm running somewhat of a gestalt in our ROTRL campaign... Our gm feels like the classic 4 (fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric) should be part of every party build. I'm suspicious that he's so adamant about it only because he seems to want to discourage players taking any other kind of funky class. Everyone at the table, given the freedom to choose, each would rather take a funky class, so we suggested gestalting in such that every person at the table could choose one funky class and one 'classic 4' class, which would cover his desire to see the core 4 and also each player's desire to get their funk on.
We wound up with a rogue alchemist, a ranger cleric (two cores and nothing funky), an inquisitor monk (2 funky's and no core 4) and myself... The conjuration school wizard/first world evolutionist summoner (wizard being core, summoner being funky)... Of course right out the gate its funny that one player would gravitate towards 2 cores while another would fail to choose a core, which was the whole point of the exercise.... But it's been going well for 10 levels now... We're finishing up with hook mountain and everythings been pretty cool.
Despite our combinations not being 'optimized', our gm feels like our gestalts are still just a smidge too powerful and wishes the campaign were more challenging. At the same time the players are totally jazzed about the increased variety of character options that gestalting has provided.
I got to thinking that the trouble with gestalting is the defacto choice to always take the better of the two classes, which is true... Leaves you with a character that ends up being more powerful than either of the original classes. In EVERY case... And how I might try building my gestalt in a way that DIDN'T take the best of the two... Despite having more options, would that create the opposite situation where the gestalt sucked in comparison to its component classes EVERY time? Or would it at least bring the gestalt back into the comfort zone?
The first trick for me personally of course is that i'm gestalting a summoner and a wizard. So I was definitely the one my GM was most worried about. Being a MAD caster wasn't culling back the possible power of the combination in what he'd consider to be a measureable way. I found first world summoner which would bring the eidolon down in power without gaining much (arguably its a full on neuter of the eidolon with practically no return) so that was a way to keep things down. I also tend to choose 'utility spells' over 'blasty deathy' or 'buff' spells just because I've been there, done that. Kinda bored with it. Of course there's some 'buff' inherent to summoner just to make the eidolon useful so some of that can't be avoided.
The big nerf that he was concerned about was the number of spells per day. If I was going to hit level 10 and have 29 spells per day, that was going to be just too much for him to handle. So we settled on the philosophy that like everything else in gestalts, spells per day should not be 'added' but instead 'choose the best of the two'... So although I got the advantage of not having to memorize spells in advance and also got the advantage of a wizard's ability to learn new spells from scrolls, I only cast the number of spells per day as a wizard (wanting to get higher level spells faster trumped the more spells per day of the summoner...) Its a funky combination, and I think if I were choosing a lot of combat or attack spells, or if I tried making the summoner a synthesist or master summoner he'd probably say I was jumping the shark again...
Then I see this recommendation to check out the Hellenic Sorceres, and suddenly I'm thinking the same thing. What if I made a class that does everything I want it to do, and nothing that I dont... Knowing that there are certain things a wizard can do that summoners cant, which ones can I live without and which ones are the one's I can't live without... Knowing that there are certain things a summoner can do that wizards cant, which ones can I live without and which ones can go... And finally in the places where things can go, can I instead of gestalting and choosing the 'best of both worlds' choose the 'worst of both worlds' and keep the class within the 'power band'...
Red flags would be areas where the results are 'as good as one class but better than another' because thats a step up in power.
Green flags would be areas where the results are 'as good as one class but worse than another' resulting in step down from the original classes.
Here's what I've got...
6 hit die. Same as wizard, weaker than summoner 1 point green!
No alignment restrictions on either class? Moot point. Still 1 point on the side of green!
Class skills? summoner has handle animal, ride, and umd that wizard does not, wizard has appraise which summoner does not.
I'd go with the summoner's skills. Arguably they are better than wizard's, so we'll call it 1 point red, which brings us back to even.
Weapons? Wizard gets club staff crossbow dagger. Summoner gets all basic weapons. We'll go wizard. 1 point Green
Armor? Wizards get no armor or shield. Summoner gets light armor! We'll go wizard again. Up to 2 points green!
Both get skills of 2+Int... Moot point here. Still 2 points green!
Summoners do not prepare spells, Wizards do. I love not preparing spells. 1 point red so we're still 1 point on the green side
Summoners use charisma, wizards use int. Int is arguably the better option since it also gives skillpoints. I'll go charisma so one point green and we're back to 2!
Wizards can learn spells through study. Summoners can not. I vote not. 3 points green!
Spells per day is going to have to go up to 9 so wizards spells per day. Red point here since summoners dont get spells above 6
Summoners choose off a restricted spell list where wizards dont. I still want a restricted list, but while more restricted in number of spells to choose from than both the wizard and even the summoner actually, I choose different spells... but the more restrictive list than summoner i'd call a green... Its way less than wizard seeing as how wizard's choice is 'infinite'...
Where a wizard gets feats, summoners get no feats... I vote no feat every 4 levels. One point green and we're up to 4.
on the other hand Summoner gets eidolon, wizard does not. Gotta have my eidolon and all the weird eidolon stuff that goes with them. Gotta call this a red point but the whole of the eidolon thing seems to be much more powerful than the 4 wizard feats its replacing... stilll 3 points green though.
No free scribe scroll for the wizard doesnt seem cool enough to merit a green point but I don't need it since I don't plan on it. I'll give it up.
Wizard gets arcane focus or familiar... we'll scratch that. 1 point green and we're back to 4
Keep that first world eidolon which is weaker than the summoner... Wont even take a green point for it...
Conjuration school archetype which wizard qualifies for but summoner doesnt... 1 point red.
Evolutionist... (technically archetypes are supposed to have built in disadvantages so it should be a 0 point issue, but we'll call it red since wizards cant take it)...
Wizard is half bab, summoner is 3/4.... I'll take wizard... Point green!
So up to this point i'm 3 points green. At least 4 more areas where the gestalt process produces weakness that half of the gestalt didnt have before than areas that provided unmitigated advantages cut and dried....
The tricky part is the spells then. In terms of number of spells known, summoner at its best will only know maybe a smidge more than 40 spells, where a wizard can learn ALL of them... I need more like 80 spells known... Less than wizard but more than summoner. Point red.
The list of spells to choose from on a purely 'number of choices' level is bigger than summoner (wizard) but of course if I created a new list of only the 80 spells that I care about and call it the new 'class list' like the published summoner does, thats actually a much smaller list than even the summoner list (by half!)... I'll call it a point red anyway since at the end of the day its better than summoner.
Not being able to choose master summoner or synthesist might be enough of a draw to make me feel like I deserve another green point, but in the end I don't even need it. I'm still 1 point green at the end of this build...
The question is... How does it sound to others... At the end of the day it's not a gestalt class. Its a custom built single class that, like gishes, does a little bit of one job and a little bit of another... Its meant so that every advantage it takes from one class gives it a disadvantage as well. As a player or a gm does this 'custom class' seem overpowered for a single class campaign? For a gestalt campaign? Is it too nerfed? Will people see this party member as being 'not useful enough?' "Campaign breakingly out of control?"
Where 3.0 and 3.5 had so many funky prestige classes to choose from there was always something that would set you up exactly how you liked. Not being a fan of summoners not being able to get higher levels spells and wizards not having eidolons are the things I'd like to fix, but are the sacrifices in the build enough to compensate for the added power? Do they come close? What more would you do to get there?
Technically it kinda means i'm a conjuration school wizard who's giving up my scribe scroll, 4 more feats, arcane focus or familiar, the giant pile of skillpoints that comes from being int based, removing my ability to learn spells from scrolls or other people's spellbooks, reducing the ability to know an infinite number of spells down to just 80 tops, and in exchange I get a first would evolutionist eidolon and not having to choose which spells to memorize each day. Is that a fair trade?
Or it means i'm a first world evolutionist summoner who's going from 8 hit die to 6, giving up light armor, shield, most weapons, more spells per day in the lower levels, half as many spells to choose from, going from 3/4 bab to half bab, and in exchange although i'm not getting the infinite list of spells to choose from or the ability to learn them from books, i'm getting to cast a few spells from level 7-9 that I didn't have access to before, and ultimately twice as many options for the lower levels spells as I had before, just half less often per day, and the conjuration school archetype. Fair trade?
Vincent - why not bring your concept over to the Multiclass Archetypes IV thread? We are dedicated to bringing the gestalt into a single class framework...
[EDIT] Here are our MCA Creation Guidelines and a LINK to our Ultimate MCAs - over 100 ready to use gestalt character classes for your gaming fun...
We don't have a Summoner/Wizard yet, so your input would be timely...[/EDIT]
Interesting! I'll throw my hat in the ring!
Well... That escalated quickly...
Alright then. Well at the very least it helped me get a clearer focus of the specifics of my intent.
The simplest way to state the goal is start with a sorcerer.
What we want to add?
What we are fine with removing
Things that mitigate the cost of the eidolon
Opinions? Is this too powerful? If so then can I get some specifics on how you form that opinion. Is there a particular tactic that this class could pull off that makes it overshadow other existing classes?
Is this master summoner levels of broken?
First tier? Second tier?
Thoughts?
Yes, well at least you did get some clarity. Take care Vincent! :) Sorry I can't help you, I'm not really the caster type of guy...
So far we've found out that a crafty player may mitigate the low spells per day count by scribing scrolls like his butt's on fire.... So that's something....
Any other crafty workarounds that one might use to mitigate the class's weaknesses? Any other techniques one might use to break the class?
Well, its come a long way... I think its getting to the point where I dont have much more for it... so here we go...
Original Concept by Vincent Takeda.
Alignment: Any non lawful, non evil
Primary Class: Sorcerer
Secondary Class: Summoner
Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Sing (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int)
Bonus Skills and Ranks: 2+Int
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Club only. No armor. No shields. Incurs penalties for the use of armor during casting like other casters.
Spells: Gains spells per day per the column on the Svyazi Kolduna table. Spells per day can be modified by the Charisma attribute. They learn new spells at the rate of 4 per level. These spells are drawn from the Svyazi Kolduna's spell list. The attribute upon which their spells is based is charisma. Must have a charisma score equal to at least 10+the spell level and the DC for saves against those spells is 10+the spell level+the charisma modifier of the caster. The spells are not gained through study and the Svyazi Kolduna is not capable of adding spells to his list of spells known from spellbooks or scrolls. The spells are cast from the list of his currently known spells and are not memorized or prepared in advance. The Svyazi Kolduna may never learn from or cast from scrolls.
Cantrips: The Svyazi Kolduna gains cantrips in the same way he gains other spells, but can of course use them any number of times per day.
summoning circle Begins play with the ability to summon a First World Eidolon (Half BAB, d6 for hit points). The Svyazi Kolduna brings forth the eidolon in the same way that a summoner does, using a summoning circle that takes 1 minute to cast... They can do this a number of times per day equal to 3+their charisma modifier. They can instead use this summoning capability to bring forth the following creatures at the appropriate level. Unlike the eidolon, these can only remain out for 1 minute per level of the Svyazi Kolduna.
Level 7: Unicorn
Level 9: Pixie, satyr
Level 15: Nymph
Instead of outsider, the eidolon has the fey creature type and extraplanar subtype. It uses the same statistics as a First world eidolon (d6 for hit dice, BAB is half the eidolon's hit dice. Uses good Reflex and Will saves.) It's class skills are acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, fly, know geography, now nature, perception, perform, sense motive, sleight of hand, stealth, swim. It uses low light vision , though it can be granted darkvision with the use of an evolution point. When the eidolon is eligible for DR/alignment, they may choose DR/cold iron instead.
Must be a biped humanoid base form and is not eligible for bite, mount, pincers, pounce, sting, tail, tailslap, tentacle, constrict, extra limbs, rake, trample, swallow whole, hooves, or undead appearance evolutions either naturally or through evolution surge spells.
Transmogrify: At level 12 the Svyazi Kolduna may use transmogrify once per day as the spell without cost.
Dimensional step: The Svyazi Kolduna can teleport up to 30 feet per level per day as a standard action. It must be used in 5 foot increments and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. He can bring along others but expends the same travel distance for each additional willing creature against his daily total.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1--------0------0------0------2 Cantrip, Eidolon, Life link, Dimension steps
2--------1------0------0------3 Bond senses
3--------1------1------1------3
4--------2------1------1------4
5--------2------1------1------4
6--------3------2------2------5
7--------3------2------2------5 Summoning circle:Unicorn
8--------4------2------2------6
9--------4------3------3------6 Summoning circle: Pixie/satyr
10------5------3------3------7
11------5------3------3------7
12------6------4------4------8
13------6------4------4------8 Summoning circle: Nymph
14------7------4------4------9 Life bond
15------7------5------5------9
16------8------5------5------10
17------8------5------5------10
18------9------6------6------11 Greater aspect
19------9------6------6------11
20------10----6------6------12
Spells per day table:
-----1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
1---1
2---2
3---2---1
4---2---2
5---2---2---1
6---2---2---2
7---2---2---2---1
8---2---2---2---2
9---2---2---2---2---1
10-2---2---2---2---2
11-2---2---2---2---2---1
12-2---2---2---2---2---2
13-2---2---2---2---2---2---1
14-2---2---2---2---2---2---2
15-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---1
16-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
17-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---1
18-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
19-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
First world eidolon: Uses the same advancement table as the normal eidolon except that first world eidolons use half bab (of the eidolons hit dice) use ref and will for the good saves, lowlight vision instead of darkvision (can be upgraded to darkvision using an evolution point) and in the Svyazi Kolduna's case, never get multiattack.
The Svyazi Kolduna chooses 4 spells at each new level from the appropriate levels in the following list: