Seeking advice on FALEN'S FIREBIRD / PHEONIX spell balance


Homebrew and House Rules


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do these spells look balanced to you? If not, what do you propose to fix them?

Falen’s Firebird
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level:
Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature, object, or point in space
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread or single 5-ft. square (see text)
Effect: One flaming bird
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a bright, flaming bird which streaks from your outstretched hand to attack a target of your choice within range of this spell. The firebird flies to your target and detonates on impact as if it were a fireball spell. Unlike the fireball spell, however, the firebird suffers no chance of premature detonation.

Alternatively, you can instruct the firebird not to detonate and instead envelop the target in a hellish inferno. If the latter attack method is chosen, the firebird’s maximum damage cap is raised to 15d6 (instead of the fireball’s usual 10d6), the target takes a –4 penalty on its Reflex save, and the area of effect is reduced to a single 5-ft. square (or the target's space, whichever is larger).

Regardless of which attack method is chosen at the time of casting, Falen’s firebird is still limited to 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (up to the aforementioned maximums).

Falen’s Pheonix
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

As Falen’s firebird, but damage cap is raised to 20d6 (20d8 if focused on a single target). Furthermore, targets that fail their saves catch on fire, taking 4d6 fire damage each round until the fire can be put out (using the DC of this spell).

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Firebird is both more versatile and more powerful than fireball. That versatility and extra power is worth more than 1 spell level up. Compare to, for instance, freezing sphere, or for a more sucky druid comparison, fire seeds. Not sure whether I'd make it 5th or 6th as is; it'd be a very strong choice for 5th but maybe a bit weak for 6th. Could stay 4th level if the hellish inferno option stayed capped at 10d6.

Likewise phoenix. Strictly better than delayed blast fireball. It's 8th-level good as written.

The real kicker, though, is that they're evocation spells masquerading as conjuration spells. Conjuration is already widely considered better than evocation, and with good reason. Conjuration doesn't need moar dakka. These should be evocation. 2cp


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In that case, how's this?

Falen’s Firebird
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level:
Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature, object, or point in space
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread or single 5-ft. square (see text)
Effect: One flaming bird
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a bright, flaming bird which streaks from your outstretched hand to attack a target of your choice within range of this spell. The firebird flies to your target and detonates on impact as if it were a fireball spell. Unlike the fireball spell, however, the firebird suffers no chance of premature detonation.

Alternatively, you can instruct the firebird not to detonate and instead envelop the target in a hellish inferno. If the latter attack method is chosen, the target takes a –4 penalty on its Reflex save, and the area of effect is reduced to a single 5-ft. square (or the target's space, whichever is larger).

Regardless of which attack method is chosen at the time of casting, Falen’s firebird is still limited to 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (up to the aforementioned maximums).

Falen’s Pheonix
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

As Falen’s firebird, but damage cap is raised to 20d6. Furthermore, targets that fail their saves catch on fire, taking 2d6 fire damage each round until the fire can be put out (using the DC of this spell).

There is no longer any damage increase in either spell for focused targeting and the on-fire damage for the latter spell has been reduced to 2d6. I'm not overly concerned about the school of magic as both spells still allow for SR (ignoring that is what makes some conjuration spells cheesy potent).


I definitely think a spell like this should not be conjuration, that would be power creep in the form of making an already powerful and versatile school even more versatile.

Having said that I do not knowif the versatility compensate the weakness of the damage. I would like a spell like that with only the single target aspect, but It probably would be very abuseable with metamagic rods of dazing.

By the way what happnes if the target is behing an invisible wall of force?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Phoenix is still unquestionably better than delayed blast fireball and therefore probably too good for 7th. I would have left it as the first version and just made it 8th level. Actually, it's still pretty good for 8th: it's like a combination of delayed blast fireball direct damage and incendiary cloud DOT.

Let me put the conjuration vs. evocation thing into perspective: would you be OK with an evocation [healing] spell? How about a divination that turns you invisible? An abjuration that replicates summon monster? If you are, then make it whatever school you want. But that greatly increases the power of specialist wizards by making an end run around the limitation of opposition schools.

I also disagree with Nicos that the damage on these spells is weak. It is on par or better than benchmark damaging spells in the level range being considered. See UM p. 130.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am considering the following rewrites of these two spells, what do you think of these new versions?

Falen’s Firbird
School
conjuration (creation) [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target One creature, object, or point in space
Effect One flaming bird the size of a sparrow
Area one 5-ft. square or the target’s space, whichever is larger (see text)
Duration Instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half (see text); Spell Resistance Yes

You create a bright, flaming bird which streaks from your outstretched hand to attack a target of your choice within range of the spell. The firebird flies to your target, dodging obstacles as it does so, and envelops the victim in a hellish inferno, dealing 1d6 fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to anything in its space. When you cast this spell, make a ranged touch attack, ignoring bonuses for cover (if you know which square the target is in and there is an open path to it, you can even ignore total cover as the firebird flies around corners, through small windows, etc.). You must roll for concealment as normal. If you hit, the target takes a –4 penalty on its Reflex save against the spell. If you miss, the target makes its save as normal. Anything else sharing the target’s space is considered to have been missed by the spell, taking damage and making saves as normal for an area of effect spell.

Falen’s Phoenix
Level
sorcerer/wizard 6
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one primary target, plus one secondary target per four levels (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
Effect One flaming bird the size of a hawk
Duration instantaneous (see text)

As Falen’s firebird, but the damage cap is raised to 20d6 and your firebird can accost multiple targets as shown above (to a maximum of five secondary targets at 20th level). Furthermore, targets who fail their saves catch on fire, taking 2d6 fire damage each round until the fire can be extinguished (using the DC of this spell). Only the primary target risks suffering a penalty on their saving throw unless you miss, in which case you may choose to roll against a secondary target until you successfully hit one, or until you miss all of the available targets. You may not roll against a given target more than once with a single casting of this spell.

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