Dear All:
I have spent some time using the race builder rules from the Advanced Race Guide to create two new races based on the moogles and vieras from the Final Fantasy Series.
I am looking for opinions regarding balance such as what abilities you might cut, add, or replace to make these any better. So far, the moogles rank at 21 RP and the vieras rank at 20 RP.
The specs for both can be found below. Let me know what you guys think.
Moogles [Humanoid(Moogle)]
+2 Dex, +2 Int: Moogles are great with their hands lending to their excellence in engineering and technology.
Small: +1 size bonus to AC and on attack rolls; -1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to CMD; +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Moogles have a base speed of 20 feet.
Cornered Fury: Whenever a moogle is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious allies within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class.
Eternal Hope: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, a moogle may reroll and use the second result.
Beguiling Liar: Moogles gain a +4 racial bonus on Bluff checks to convince an opponent that what they are saying is true when they tell a lie.
Craftsman: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks to create objects from metal or stone.
Master Tinker: Moogles gain a +1 bonus on Disable Device and Knowledge(Engineering) checks. They are also treated as proficient with any weapon they have personally crafted.
Elven Magic: Moogles gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, they also receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Jumper: Moogles are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Vestigial Wings: Moogles have wings that do not provide the lift required for actual flight, but do have enough power to aid flight attained by some other method, and grant a +4 racial bonus on Fly checks.
Kneecapper: Moogles gain a +4 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an opponent.
Low-Light Vision: Moogles can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Languages: Moogles begin play speaking Common and Kupo. Moogles with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Sylvan.
Viera [Humanoid(Viera)]
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con: Viera are strong and swift hunters, but their lithe frames make them very delicate.
Medium: Viera are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Viera have a base speed of 40 feet.
Bond to the Land: Viera gain a +2 dodge bonus when in forested terrain.
Cat's Luck(Ex): Once per day, when a viera makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.
Camouflage: Viera gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within forested areas.
Nimble Faller: Viera land on their feet even when they take lethal damage from a fall. Furthermore, they gain a +1 racial bonus to their CMD against trip attempts.
Silent Hunter: Viera reduce the penalty for using Stealth whie moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a -20 penalty.
Quick Reactions: Viera receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Fleet-Footed: Viera receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
Sprinter: Viera gain a +10 foot racial bonus to their speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions.
Poison Use: Viera are skilled with poison and never risk poisoning themselves when applying poison to weapons.
Scent(Ex): See Bestiary, page 304 for details.
Languages: Viera begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Elven, Kupo, Ignan, and Terran.
For more information on Moogles, please consult the following web page: Moogles
For more information on Viera, please consult the following web page: Viera
Both races are too powerful to be playable races.
You really went a little overboard with adding abilities.
I am guessing from the Viera that you are trying to go for Ivalice Final Fantasy, such as FF 12, Tactics, etc.
In that case might I make a few suggestions.
First the Moggles. Give them a -2 to Str. They are small sized, and as such makes since to be weaker then normal, besides moggles are known as weaklings, unless they are summons. Make Craftsmen into the Gnome's Obsessive.
Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.
Master Tinker is a good to keep. Low-light vision is okay, though I never saw evidence for this in the games. The eternal hope I also like for them. Of course leave them slow.
Toss out the rest, but add this instead, Give them a fly speed of 10-15ft clumsy. The fly racial ability says 30ft clumsy I know, but they are not very nimble or fast in the games. To make up for the reduction in speed give them Hover as a bonus feat.
That Gives you.
0 RP for abilities
0 RP for size
-1 RP for Slow
2 RP for Obsessive
2 RP for Master Tinker
2 RP for Low-light
2 RP for Hover
2 RP for Eternal Hope
4 RP for fly if you keep it 30ft clumsy, which would be good too, but I would argue like 2-3 RP is you make it 10-15 ft.
So between 11-13 RP, which is not that too high.
Why give them fly? First off in Ivalice they can, in many games they can actually, and it makes them a very unique PC race.
Now for Viera.
I would go like +2 dex, +2 wis or cha, then -2 Con. They are not really shown to be stronger then Humans.
Strangely I am fine with Fast as Viera are fast. I would not give them Sprinter on top of that though. Silent Hunter is also good, and camouflague. Get rid of the rest, but add this.
Commune with Nature 1/day. It's a 4th level Ranger spell that does not damage, so it works with Greater Spell-like ability. It also has a casting time of 10 minutes, so it's powerful for a 1st level character, but not broken imho.
So that makes them a RP 12 race.
0 RP for abilities
0 RP for Size
1 RP for +10 to speed
2 RP for Silent Hunter
2 RP for Bond to the Land
1 RP for Camouflage
4 RP for Commune with Nature
Tenshi no Shi wrote: Both races are too powerful to be playable races.
You really went a little overboard with adding abilities.
I am guessing from the Viera that you are trying to go for Ivalice Final Fantasy, such as FF 12, Tactics, etc.
In that case might I make a few suggestions.
First the Moggles. Give them a -2 to Str. They are small sized, and as such makes since to be weaker then normal, besides moggles are known as weaklings, unless they are summons. Make Craftsmen into the Gnome's Obsessive.
Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.
Master Tinker is a good to keep. Low-light vision is okay, though I never saw evidence for this in the games. The eternal hope I also like for them. Of course leave them slow.
Toss out the rest, but add this instead, Give them a fly speed of 10-15ft clumsy. The fly racial ability says 30ft clumsy I know, but they are not very nimble or fast in the games. To make up for the reduction in speed give them Hover as a bonus feat.
That Gives you.
0 RP for abilities
0 RP for size
-1 RP for Slow
2 RP for Obsessive
2 RP for Master Tinker
2 RP for Low-light
2 RP for Hover
2 RP for Eternal Hope
4 RP for fly if you keep it 30ft clumsy, which would be good too, but I would argue like 2-3 RP is you make it 10-15 ft.
So between 11-13 RP, which is not that too high.
Why give them fly? First off in Ivalice they can, in many games they can actually, and it makes them a very unique PC race.
Now for Viera.
I would go like +2 dex, +2 wis or cha, then -2 Con. They are not really shown to be stronger then Humans.
Strangely I am fine with Fast as Viera are fast. I would not give them Sprinter on top of that though. Silent Hunter is also good, and camouflague. Get rid of the rest, but add this.
Commune with Nature 1/day. It's a 4th level Ranger spell that does not damage, so it works with Greater Spell-like ability. It also has a casting time of 10 minutes, so it's powerful for a 1st level character, but not...
Dear Tenshi no Shi:
I am indeed trying to create these races based on the Ivalice setting. I like your tips and have changed the moogles and vieras slightly: Tell me what you think. And for those who may be joining this thread in progress, I welcome your input as well.
For the moogles, I definitely do not want them to fly outright without some work; In the Ivalice setting, very few are able to fly ("Apart from a minority of moogles actually small enough for their wings to support, they generally cannot fly." See Final Fantasy XII section on web page listed in my earlier post). Your suggestions did help me decide what to cut: I believe the new specs total for 15 RP.
Moogles [Humanoid(Moogle)]
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str: Moogles are great with their hands lending to their excellence in engineering and technology. Their small size makes them inherently weak.
Small: +1 size bonus to AC and on attack rolls; -1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to CMD; +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Moogles have a base speed of 20 feet.
Cornered Fury: Whenever a moogle is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious allies within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class.
Eternal Hope: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, a moogle may reroll and use the second result.
Craftsman: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks to create objects from metal or stone.
Master Tinker: Moogles gain a +1 bonus on Disable Device and Knowledge(Engineering) checks. They are also treated as proficient with any weapon they have personally crafted.
Elven Magic: Moogles gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, they also receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Jumper: Moogles are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Vestigial Wings: Moogles have wings that do not provide the lift required for actual flight, but do have enough power to aid flight attained by some other method, and grant a +4 racial bonus on Fly checks.
Low-Light Vision: Moogles can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Languages: Moogles begin play speaking Common and Kupo. Moogles with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Sylvan.
For the viera, I would like to thank you a lot for the Commune with Nature suggestion: It goes very well with their "People of the Wood" flavor. The new viera specs total for 14 RP.
Viera [Humanoid(Viera)]
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con: Viera are swift and vigilant hunters, but their lithe frames make them very delicate.
Medium: Viera are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Viera have a base speed of 40 feet.
Bond to the Land: Viera gain a +2 dodge bonus when in forested terrain.
Cat's Luck(Ex): Once per day, when a viera makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.
Camouflage: Viera gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within forested areas.
Nimble Faller: Viera land on their feet even when they take lethal damage from a fall. Furthermore, they gain a +1 racial bonus to their CMD against trip attempts.
Silent Hunter: Viera reduce the penalty for using Stealth whie moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a -20 penalty.
Quick Reactions: Viera receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Spell-Like Ability: A viera can use Commune with Nature once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the viera's class level.
Languages: Viera begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Elven, Kupo, Ignan, and Terran.
Hmm... yeah they are a lot better now. I would still argue with removing Elven magic from Moggles, and Nimble Faller from Viera. I also think that Improved initiative is too much for the Viera as well. I would just reduce it to a +2 to initiative like the trait reactionary. With them having a +2 dex, the +4 to initiative makes that a +5. It's just too much imho. You could also remove jumper from Moggles. I know that Pathfinder has quite a few 13-15 races, but they tend to be either specialized, or really just overpowered compared to the rest.
You are right about the moggles, I had forgotten in FF 12 there are only a few that flew. Just thought a race capable of slow flight would be an interesting addition to a game. Maybe can make a variant where they are tiny, get a -4 to str... hmmm.
Are you going to try to make the rest of the races from Ivalice? Or did just the Moggles and Viera speak to you?
Edit: I did the math and Moggles are 16 as well as Viera are 16 right now.
Tenshi no Shi wrote: Hmm... yeah they are a lot better now. I would still argue with removing Elven magic from Moggles, and Nimble Faller from Viera. I also think that Improved initiative is too much for the Viera as well. I would just reduce it to a +2 to initiative like the trait reactionary. With them having a +2 dex, the +4 to initiative makes that a +5. It's just too much imho. You could also remove jumper from Moggles. I know that Pathfinder has quite a few 13-15 races, but they tend to be either specialized, or really just overpowered compared to the rest.
You are right about the moggles, I had forgotten in FF 12 there are only a few that flew. Just thought a race capable of slow flight would be an interesting addition to a game. Maybe can make a variant where they are tiny, get a -4 to str... hmmm.
Are you going to try to make the rest of the races from Ivalice? Or did just the Moggles and Viera speak to you?
Edit: I did the math and Moggles are 16 as well as Viera are 16 right now.
Dear Tenshi no Shi:
LOL. I actually meant to remove Jumper from moogles: Looks like I missed it! What do you think about making Jumper an alternate racial trait, available to players in exchange for Vestigial Wings? I could also make Elven Magic an alternate racial trait in exchange for both Craftsman and Master Tinker. If I do that, the moogles then have 11 RP which sounds pretty reasonable.
As for the viera, your opinion is noted with regards to Quick Reactions, but I intended the viera to be quick, including the possibility of being the first to strike. I may decide to use Reactionary as per your suggestion in the future however; I might just end up nixing Nimble Faller as well, reducing the total RP by 2 to 13 RP.
Bond to the Land (2 RP)
Cat's Luck (1 RP)
Camouflage (1 RP)
Nimble Faller (2 RP)
Silent Hunter (2 RP)
Quick Reactions (2 RP)
Fast (1 RP)
Spell-Like Ability (4 RP)
All other traits are for 0 RP for the viera. So, unless I missed something, they should be at 15 RP.
I don't plan on doing the other races from Ivalice with the exception of the Feol Viera. If I do any of the others aside from that, they'll probably be those from Final Fantasy Tactics A2 as that is the game I am most familiar with. ;)
I am, of course, always open to suggestions. You've been quite helpful so far, especially since this is my first time building a race.
Yeah I would remove both Elven Magic and Jumper from the Moggle. Having Elven Magic a trade off for Tinker/Craftsmen works well too. Jumper on the other I just don't see them having. Moggles have kind of short stubby legs.
As for the Viera, I counted Cat's Luck as 2 RP when it is only 1, so it just 15 RP total. If you like Nimble Faller, you can always remove Cat's Luck. I guess quick reactions is not that bad starting out. It means that you can never take Improved Initiative as a feat, since you already receive it and a bonus feat from the race. Keep in mind that the Spell-like ability is only a 4rp on a technicality. It is a 5th level druid spell, it's only a 4th level ranger spell because rangers get their 4th level of spells at 13/14th level. I still don't think it would be too broken though, because it's casting time of 10 minutes you really will not want to use all that often.
A good way to look at making races is look at the classes they would naturally feed into, and then make one of that class.
The Moggles are actually pretty generalized, the best class I can see for them is a Wizard, or Alchemist. Being small, does not hurt either class, and both dex and int helps those classes. But the rest of their abilities do not feed into either class much. Except if you are making a Magic Item creation wizard.
The Viera on the other hand scream ranger. With the +2 dex, +2 Wis is feeds a ranged ranger. the -2 con is a set back, but you make up for that with all their racial abilities. They would also be natural druids. So try making a 1st level then a 5th/10th/ or 15th level character of each class.
I know you probably want to just create the races yourself with some advice from the boards. That's pretty much how I am, but I found a site which you might take some inspiration from: Check out the Viera at Final Fantasy d20. While the race is a bit skill heavy (too much for my tastes), the guy or gal running it included alternate racial features and favored class bonuses as well. Moogles are there, as well as many of the other races.
Hope it helps.
Tenshi no Shi wrote: Yeah I would remove both Elven Magic and Jumper from the Moggle. Having Elven Magic a trade off for Tinker/Craftsmen works well too. Jumper on the other I just don't see them having. Moggles have kind of short stubby legs.
As for the Viera, I counted Cat's Luck as 2 RP when it is only 1, so it just 15 RP total. If you like Nimble Faller, you can always remove Cat's Luck. I guess quick reactions is not that bad starting out. It means that you can never take Improved Initiative as a feat, since you already receive it and a bonus feat from the race. Keep in mind that the Spell-like ability is only a 4rp on a technicality. It is a 5th level druid spell, it's only a 4th level ranger spell because rangers get their 4th level of spells at 13/14th level. I still don't think it would be too broken though, because it's casting time of 10 minutes you really will not want to use all that often.
A good way to look at making races is look at the classes they would naturally feed into, and then make one of that class.
The Moggles are actually pretty generalized, the best class I can see for them is a Wizard, or Alchemist. Being small, does not hurt either class, and both dex and int helps those classes. But the rest of their abilities do not feed into either class much. Except if you are making a Magic Item creation wizard.
The Viera on the other hand scream ranger. With the +2 dex, +2 Wis is feeds a ranged ranger. the -2 con is a set back, but you make up for that with all their racial abilities. They would also be natural druids. So try making a 1st level then a 5th/10th/ or 15th level character of each class.
Dear Tenshi no Shi:
I had not really thought about either race in terms of classes; I did think about the various roles they might fill in my world.
For the moogles, I imagine them in competition with dwarves for craftsmanship of buildings and weapons and in competition with gnomes for other forms of technology.
I see the viera as the reclusive guardians of forests and the hidden wilds in my world, often teaming with nymphs, druids, and rangers to combat monstrous races encroaching upon such lands or the individuals and groups who might exploit the land in a way that is not sustainable.
Thanks for the suggestion though: I might try doing that once I finalize the Feol Viera.
Da'ath wrote: I know you probably want to just create the races yourself with some advice from the boards. That's pretty much how I am, but I found a site which you might take some inspiration from: Check out the Viera at Final Fantasy d20. While the race is a bit skill heavy (too much for my tastes), the guy or gal running it included alternate racial features and favored class bonuses as well. Moogles are there, as well as many of the other races.
Hope it helps.
Dear Da'ath:
Thanks for providing the link. I had no idea such a thing even existed.
Dear All:
I have begun work on the specs for the Feol Viera. Let me know what you think.
Feol [Humanoid(Viera)]
+2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con: Their celestial heritage makes them more beautiful and sociable than their forest dwelling kin, but they are still just as frail and vigilant.
Medium: Feol are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Feol have a base speed of 40 feet.
Spell Resistance, Lesser: Feol gain spell resistance equal to 6 plus their character level.
Emissary: Once per day, a feol can roll twice when making a Bluff or Diplomacy check and take the better roll.
Gifted Linguist: Feol gain a +4 racial bonus on Linguistics checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill.
Silver Tongued: Feol gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
Quick Reactions: Feol receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Darkvision: Feol can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Linguist: Feol begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose any language they wish(except Druidic and any other secret languages.
Here's a list of abilities I was considering as either alternate racial traits or traits to replace one or more of those above: Lifebound, Curiosity, Gift of Tongues, Sociable, Urbanite, Envoy, Heavenborn, and Seducer.
I was strongly considering giving them either Celestial Resistance or Exalted Resistance instead of Spell Resistance, Lesser, but decided against it as it would put them at 16 RP and I am trying to keep them close in power to the viera I have already made (i.e. 15 RP or less). Well, let me know what you guys think!
I would choose something other then spell resistance lesser. it really is not a great ability for a race. It means that a caster who is the same level as you needs to roll a 6 or better to overcome it. With NPC's and the Big Bads typically being higher levels then your player character, it means that they basically will overcome your spell resistance every time. Ever little mooks that are like 3 levels below you will only need a 9 to overcome your spell resistance. I would give them energy resistance over spell resistance. Or better yet give them a bonus to saves verses a specific type of spell. Or immunity to a specific type of spell. Like Elven Immunities.
For the Viera, I would drop the Commune with Nature SLA, and return the scent ability. Viera are noted to have extremely sharp noses, to the point that encountering a Malboro is essentially a death sentence for the now-unconscious viera. Dropping the Commune with Nature gives you the RP points for that, and also symbolizes that most of the viera a person will see in their lifetime are those who have turned their backs on the Wood. Also, "not really shown to be stronger then Humes?" Fran killed a man in full plate armor with a love tap! True, she was in a Mist Frenzy at the time, but still.
I actually am a big fan of what you are doing. I have no objections to the current state of your Moogle and Viera (both types). My one suggestion is to change Moogles from Humanoid (Moogle) to being Fey type. To me it makes more sense.
I was planning on doing this for something unrelated, but do you want an intelligence based archetype for gunslingers (all gunslingers are wisdom and charisma based for Grit. Bleh)? Focused on gun craftsmanship and such, so it sounds perfect for Moogles.
I also feel that the Psychic Warrior from Dreamscarred Press can be used to approximately depict a Red Mage for the Viera. check it out here? Psychic Warrior
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
|
