We're doing a game that is rounding the bend to six soon and we have a druid. The druid wanted to know how exactly shaping into an earth elemental works with earth glide. What senses do you get for example?
From what I can see it works out like this.
Earth essentially becomes like water to you according to the description. If you occupy a square next to a room you have line of sight/effect to the room but you emerge when attacking/casting into the room before sinking back into your square. You can't cast verbal component spells into the room as you can't speak in stone but if you have silenced magic you should be able to.
As for tremor sense can't you use this to essentially map out a dungeon as a 1 man recon team?
You don't get tremorsense, which limits the utility quite a bit.
You can do the attack into the room deal, but the whole 'emerge' deal is abstracted and you don't need to worry about it. It's part of the whole 'corner of the square' rule which lets you pick ANY corner of your square and draw a line to ALL corners of their square to check for cover/concealment. So you pick the outside corner on your turn and are clear (all thing equal), but they have to draw a line to ALL your corners, at least two of which are past earth.
I think you should take a look at the rules for incorporeal creatures. I think those tend to suffer from concealment if they attack outwards, because while inside a wall they can't see out.
I suppose you could play that way if you wanted. It's a fairly different setup though, so picking that particular piece of is surely houserule.
Not a house rule.
Squares in pathfinder seem to be sided, that is the lines on the grid aren't of zero dimension, and you're either on one side or the other.
Starting in your square , going through the line on the corner and into another square passes through a line of solid rock... so you have solid rock in between you and the target.
Not a house rule.
Squares in pathfinder seem to be sided, that is the lines on the grid aren't of zero dimension, and you're either on one side or the other.
Starting in your square , going through the line on the corner and into another square passes through a line of solid rock... so you have solid rock in between you and the target.
I would like a citation regarding your dimensional-grid-lines theory.
I remember reading several threads discussing obscuring fog effects and mist, and no one found any way around the 'choose a corner' rule from attacking out of your square.
Line Of Effect does not state you get to pick a corner of your square to draw from. It does say it is like line of sight for ranged attacks. Which is ambiguous at best.
Line Of Effect does not state you get to pick a corner of your square to draw from. It does say it is like line of sight for ranged attacks. Which is ambiguous at best.
Depends. Line of effect is defined in the magic section among other spell definitions, which say some effect types do start from any corner (lines and cones) others you select a point of origin.
But as far as looking at things and seeing them, the cover & concealment rules don't leave much ambiguity.
Depends. Line of effect is defined in the magic section among other spell definitions, which say some effect types do start from any corner (lines and cones) others you select a point of origin.
But as far as looking at things and seeing them, the cover & concealment rules don't leave much ambiguity.
The LoE definition in the magic section is what I was talking about.
As far as spells where you select a point of origin, you need to have LoE to that point. It does not say you select a corner of your square to determine that LoE. So, now we're back to what does LoE mean in the circumstances that it hasn't been defined.
Scorching ray is easy, it is a ranged ray attack, so you pick your corner and go from there. Sleep is not, as you pick your intersection, but how do you determine LoE to that point? Since it is not a "ranged attack" I don't think you get to pick a corner, and instead would rule you go center square to that point. But that's my interpretation, it is not clear.
Depends. Line of effect is defined in the magic section among other spell definitions, which say some effect types do start from any corner (lines and cones) others you select a point of origin.
But as far as looking at things and seeing them, the cover & concealment rules don't leave much ambiguity.
The LoE definition in the magic section is what I was talking about.
As far as spells where you select a point of origin, you need to have LoE to that point. It does not say you select a corner of your square to determine that LoE. So, now we're back to what does LoE mean in the circumstances that it hasn't been defined.
Scorching ray is easy, it is a ranged ray attack, so you pick your corner and go from there. Sleep is not, as you pick your intersection, but how do you determine LoE to that point? Since it is not a "ranged attack" I don't think you get to pick a corner, and instead would rule you go center square to that point. But that's my interpretation, it is not clear.
I think it's more consistent to use the corner for LoE, because:
1)I can't think of any effect that explicit call for drawing a line from the center of your square.
2)It prevents the odd situation where if you want to cast scorching ray, gust of wind, dragons's breath, or lightning bolt at a creature, you do have line of effect. But if you want to cast stinking cloud, sirocco, or suggestion, you can't center the effect on that same point or target the same creature. Even though the distance, space, and obstacles between you are identical in each case.
IIRC, flanking depends on drawing a line from the center of your square to a flanking partner.
True enough for flanking. I'd forgot about that. I'll stick with point 2
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AFAIK, they've made no specific rules for how to apply Earth Glide to combat. But I think it makes sense to use the rules for an ability that most resembles it: incorporeal.
Suppose you've got a big block of rock. In it is a Shadow; when it emerges from the rock to attack people, certain rules apply. Now switch the Shadow for an Earth Gliding druid. It's pretty much the same situation; they can both move in and out of the rock, and neither of them can see through the rock. In fact, incorporeal critters are somewhat more limited because they must remain adjacent to the object's exterior.
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
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I agree without tremorsense I'd use the same rule as incorporeal, because the druid can't see through the rock.
I don't think the druid can glide with just his eyes above the ground/out of the wall like a crocodile in water. Or you could allow it (why not after all), but if so then the enemies can see his head and it loses any advantage he'd otherwise get, which would defeat the purpose. (they'd still get DEX to AC because they'd see his head coming like a shark's fin).
With tremorsense, then I'd let them leap out without the concealment modifier.
I agree without tremorsense I'd use the same rule as incorporeal, because the druid can't see through the rock.
I don't think the druid can glide with just his eyes above the ground/out of the wall like a crocodile in water.
A periscope costs 20gp.
A periscope costs 20gp.I agree without tremorsense I'd use the same rule as incorporeal, because the druid can't see through the rock.
I don't think the druid can glide with just his eyes above the ground/out of the wall like a crocodile in water.
Finally! A use for one!
It was the obscuring mist that led me to this tactic. Interestingly enough, the same GM that employed RAW to determine the individual could attack out of the mist without penalty employed my same logic to the contrary when I wanted to cast out the stone. Personally, I think RAW unquestionably supports it.
To be fair, the mist is concealment, not total concealment. (Within 5') Since the edge is <5' away, it makes sense you can see out of that side clearly.
With a rock wall, it is total concealment. Until you leave the square, why should you be able to see at all?
To be fair, the mist is concealment, not total concealment. (Within 5') Since the edge is <5' away, it makes sense you can see out of that side clearly.
With a rock wall, it is total concealment. Until you leave the square, why should you be able to see at all?
Originally I thought the person out should have the 20% miss chance as well. Once it was explained to me RAW why they don't, looking out through stone was a natural next step.