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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I'm building a halfling rogue and have a question about the rogue talent 'fast stealth' vs the halfling alternate racial trait 'swift as shadows'
The stealth skill states: Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
The fast stealth rogue talent says: Benefit: This ability allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.
The alternate racial trait swift as shadows says: Swift as Shadows Halflings possess incredible stealth even while moving through obstructed areas. Halflings with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5, and reduce the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10. This racial trait replaces sure-footed.
My question is a little confusion due to the wording 'moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty' in the skill description. What happens if you move your normal speed (20 feet for a halfling)?
Does the 'reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 in the racial trait reduce it to zero (thereby making swift as shadows the equivalent of fast stealth + adding the sniping bonus?)
Or is the penalty for moving at 'full speed' more than -5?
Thanks
I think it's a typo, instead of "less than your normal" should have been "no higher than your normal"
Dekalinder wrote: I think it's a typo, instead of "less than your normal" should have been "no higher than your normal" That would certainly be clearer. It would also confirm that swift as shadows is the equal of fast stealth (plus I'd get the sniping bonus) - unless I am missing something...
"Less than" and "no higher than" are not the same.
I will explain "When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Let's say you have a speed of 30. That means half of your speed is 15.
If you were to move 15 feet you have no penalty to stealth.
If you move 20 or 25 feet which is "greater than half but less than your normal speed" you will take the -5 penalty
concerro wrote: "Less than" and "no higher than" are not the same.
I will explain "When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Let's say you have a speed of 30. That means half of your speed is 15.
If you were to move 15 feet you have no penalty to stealth.
If you move 20 or 25 feet which is "greater than half but less than your normal speed" you will take the -5 penalty
A full move and running are different actions.
Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).
If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
Let me ask the question differently - a halfling (base move 20) moves 20 while stealthed. What's the penalty?
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Blake Duffey wrote: Let me ask the question differently - a halfling (base move 20) moves 20 while stealthed. What's the penalty? I'd say either:
A) -10
or
B) You can't stealth while moving 20.
Reasoning:
The rules explicitly say that you take -5 to your stealth check when moving more than half but less than normal speed. So at 15', you can stealth move at -5 check. This explicitly removes 20' for your halfling from consideration. However, further down, it lists that if you get an opponent to look away from you, you can use the unobserved moment to get to cover and take -10 for moving quickly. It doesn't specify how fast you can do this, but since you're already moving "quickly", it stands to reason that you're moving at full land speed (20' in this case). Otherwise, you could move at "half speed, quickly" for -10 or "more than half but less than normal, quickly" for a net of -15 which, I think, is excessive and confounding (how do you move up to half speed "quickly"?). So, honestly, I hold more to option A) moving at full speed while stealthing is -10, normally.
Conclusions:
If option A (preferable) is accurate, then Fast Stealth lets you not only move up to 20' for no penalty, but also lets you stealth in an "unobserved moment" for no penalty as well while Swift as Shadows lets you move up to 15' for no penalty and 20' for -5.
If option B is accurate, then Fast Stealth lets you move up to 20' for no penalty, both on its own and in an "unobserved moment" while Swift as Shadows lets you only move normally up to 15' for no penalty. You'll still be able to stealth in an "unobserved moment" for only -5, but you can't stealth normally at 20'.
concerro wrote: "Less than" and "no higher than" are not the same. I know. Otherwise there would be no question.
Quote: My question is a little confusion due to the wording 'moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty' in the skill description. What happens if you move your normal speed (20 feet for a halfling)? IMHO, the wording there is just bad, similar things pop up here and there in the rules, sometimes leaving a certain statistical position 'undefined' in terms of what rules affect it (such as flying rules). I rule that the -5 applies to moving your full movement speed, but per RAW it's at zero penalty. I think practically no tables at PFS play with no penalty, but there you have it.
Quote: Does the 'reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 in the racial trait reduce it to zero (thereby making swift as shadows the equivalent of fast stealth + adding the sniping bonus?)
Or is the penalty for moving at 'full speed' more than -5?
I think there are some additional options which let you Stealth while Running at a higher penalty, in which case the Alt Racial Trait is letting your do something that Fast Stealth doesn't do at all (it just applies to normal move speed, not running/etc).
Quote: [Distraction rule allowing movement thru normally non-Stealthable area to reach Concealment/Cover, at -10 penalty... whether or not this includes moving more than half speed, or whether you would take additional penalty for doing so] IMHO, that rule DOESN'T include automatic allowance for more than half speed, meaning if you want to move that extra distance, you will suffer an additional -5 penalty. That rule doesn't address moving up to your full movement speed under the given -10 penalty, so it doesn't allow it, although you can stack both penalties if you want to. If you do that, then both Fast Stealth/Swift as Shadows address the -5 portion for moving at up to full speed, NOT the other part. The rule never actually says you move "quickly" which isn't even sufficient to imply that you move up to your full movement speed, what it says is that "you have to move fast" but in the context that makes more sense to read as "you only have a little bit of time to move" (to avoid their Distracted Perception), not that you are moving a higher distance. "Fast" is just too vague a term to imply moving a larger distance, how fast you do the action (completing given movement) is really just fluff by the rules, whether you leisurely move 10' over 6 seconds, or lightning leap there and then do nothing/something is just not relevant by the rules, it is the same 'action' in either case.
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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Quandary wrote: Quote: My question is a little confusion due to the wording 'moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty' in the skill description. What happens if you move your normal speed (20 feet for a halfling)? IMHO, the wording there is just bad, similar things pop up here and there in the rules, sometimes leaving a certain statistical position 'undefined' in terms of what rules affect it (such as flying rules). I rule that the -5 applies to moving your full movement speed, but per RAW it's at zero penalty. I think practically no tables at PFS play with no penalty, but there you have it. I'd never considered that interpretation. It makes no sense of course, but that does seem to be the literal meaning of the text.
It never gives a penalty or forbids moving at full movement speed. Therefore you can use Stealth without penalty at full speed.
Half or less: No penalty
More than half and less than full: -5
Full: No penalty.
Of course, under this reading, Fast Stealth does nothing. Strictly speaking, it does not allow moving between half and full speed without penalty.
Swift as Shadows reduces the movement penalty by 5 meaning such a halfling can stealth up to full speed without penalty.
Practically speaking, the various combinations make sense if you assume full should be included under the -5 penalty and that Fast Stealth allows you to move up to full speed without penalty.
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In digging into where this may have started I got out my old 3.5 PHB - under the Move Silently skill it says 'greater than one half but not greater than your full speed' regarding the -5 penalty. It's a -20 when charging or running.
It really is confusing the language would be changed from 'not greater than your full speed' to 'less than your normal speed'.
The online 3.5 SRD uses language closer to Pathfinder:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
After pondering and seeing some of the older language this my gut tells me the intent was
Up to half speed : no penalty
Half speed to/including full speed: -5 penalty
Three different rates seems overly complicated. Additional thoughts welcome
Blake Duffey wrote: concerro wrote: "Less than" and "no higher than" are not the same.
I will explain "When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Let's say you have a speed of 30. That means half of your speed is 15.
If you were to move 15 feet you have no penalty to stealth.
If you move 20 or 25 feet which is "greater than half but less than your normal speed" you will take the -5 penalty
A full move and running are different actions.
Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).
If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step. I said nothing about running. What are you talking about?
Your normal speed is just your base speed. As an example humans have a normal speed of 30.
Blake Duffey wrote: Let me ask the question differently - a halfling (base move 20) moves 20 while stealthed. What's the penalty? The penalty is -10
concerro wrote: Blake Duffey wrote: Let me ask the question differently - a halfling (base move 20) moves 20 while stealthed. What's the penalty? The penalty is -10 And on what do you base this? It's not in the skill description that I see.
Apparently Paizo was doing some work on this: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lckz
From that blog posting: You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half and up to your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. (It's just an example of some thinking, it's not a 'rule').
This was continued here: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml#discuss
Blake Duffey wrote: concerro wrote: Blake Duffey wrote: Let me ask the question differently - a halfling (base move 20) moves 20 while stealthed. What's the penalty? The penalty is -10 And on what do you base this? It's not in the skill description that I see. I was going by a post upthread because I thought they were citing rules text for speed, but I see that was for moving when the opponent is distracted.
The rules appear to be silent on the issue.
concerro wrote: I was going by a post upthread because I thought they were citing rules text for speed, but I see that was for moving when the opponent is distracted.
The rules appear to be silent on the issue.
Thanks - I am glad we are on the same page now.
Based on the original wording in 3.5 of move silently and the blog posts re: the Paizo playtest I included above, I am even more convinced the *intent* is 'stealth at half speed or less' is no penalty and 'stealth at half speed to full speed' is a -5 penalty.
If I'm right it would make 'swift as shadows' superior to fast stealth.
Blake Duffey wrote: concerro wrote: I was going by a post upthread because I thought they were citing rules text for speed, but I see that was for moving when the opponent is distracted.
The rules appear to be silent on the issue.
Thanks - I am glad we are on the same page now.
Based on the original wording in 3.5 of move silently and the blog posts re: the Paizo playtest I included above, I am even more convinced the *intent* is 'stealth at half speed or less' is no penalty and 'stealth at half speed to full speed' is a -5 penalty. Even in 3.5 the rule was ". When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty."
From there it says running was a -20 but moving at your normal speed is somewhere in between, but there are no rules for it. Somehow it got overlooked in 3.5 and PF.
I am thinking they will make it a -10.
Judging by the text in the Stealth playtest (which uses "up to" normal speed), I suspect that's the direction they'll go: One penalty -5 if greater than half up to full.
I think it's what the current rules have to be interpreted as too.
The alternatives as I see them are:
Literal text: -5 if greater than half speed but less than max, no penalty if full speed.
A stretch in the other direction: Can't stealth at full speed.
Invented penalty: -10 at full speed
Preferred approach: extend -5 penalty up to full speed.
Concerro - My 3.5 phb doesn't have the 'less than' language. Please see my above post
The wording in the racial trait clearly means 15 feet. You can only move in 5 feet steps and halfling with swift as shadows can only have a natural speed of 20, since it blocks the racial trait giving them 30 feet speed.
In Pathfinder you also have a -5 penalty on the check if you move more than half your speed while using stealth. Swift as shadows changes that, sou you can move nearly your full speed.
What happens when you move your normal speed and are stealthing? Rules no say-ee.
Strict RAW, what we have currently is:
Stealth allowed: 0 to normal speed \ 2
Stealth allowed, -5 penalty: Normal speed minus 5 feet
Unknown stealth status: (Up to normal speed x4) minus 5 feet
Stealth not allowed - Running (x4 normal movement) or charging
So there are actually a couple of questions here:
1. Can you move your full base movement speed while stealthing? If so, what are the penalties?
2. Can you move up to 5 feet shy of your run speed (base movement x 4) while stealthing? If so, what are the penalties?
From a house-rule perspective: Coupled with the reduction in penalty to sniping, I would allow Swift as Shadows to allow the halfling to move up to his normal speed without penalty, and then impose a -5 penalty for a double move, a -10 for a triple, and a -15 for (base movement x 4)-5 feet.
I would allow a rogue with Fast Stealth to move up to (base movement x 4)-5 feet with no penalty.
As a normal Move, you can move "up to" your speed. Anything from 5 feet up through your full move speed is covered in the Move action. Running, on the other hand, is a separate action all its own which allows you to move "up to" 4x your move speed. Whether that's your move speed +5 or the full 4x move speed, it's all a Run action. Run is also in a straight line and denies you Dex to AC. You could double-move, but that's really just taking 2 separate move actions so we won't even consider it as a distinct option. So the proper list would be:
5 - Normal/2: Stealth OK
Normal/2+5 - Normal-5: Stealth OK, -5 penalty
Normal: Stealth Unknown, Probably -10 based on blog and Unnoticed Moment rules.
Normal +5 - Normalx4: Stealth not allowed.
I appreciate all the feedback. I find the 'full move minus a square' logic silly, I'm not aware of any rule in pathfinder constructed like that.
Hayato ken - how do you arrive at the conclusion that the racial trait means 15 feet? Its not stated in the description.
How is this currently handled on society play?
I really have a tough time thinking the intent for a halfling is
2 squares : no penalty
3 squares: : - 5
4 squares: -10
thejeff wrote: Judging by the text in the Stealth playtest (which uses "up to" normal speed), I suspect that's the direction they'll go: One penalty -5 if greater than half up to full.
I think it's what the current rules have to be interpreted as too.
The alternatives as I see them are:
Literal text: -5 if greater than half speed but less than max, no penalty if full speed.
A stretch in the other direction: Can't stealth at full speed.
Invented penalty: -10 at full speed
Preferred approach: extend -5 penalty up to full speed.
I agree with this assessment.
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