Ranger Track Errata

[Tamago]

I'm wondering about this change that appears in the newest errata for the Core Rulebook:

Core Rulebook, 4th Printing wrote:

Track (Ex): A ranger adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks.

(emphasis mine)

Was changed to this:

Core Rulebook, 5th Printing wrote:

Track (Ex): A ranger adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks.

I'm curious about the reason for this change. Why do rangers no longer get a bonus to identify tracks? I haven't seen any discussions here on the message boards about how "Rangers getting a bonus to identify tracks is broken" or the like. Is there some unforeseen edge case where identifying tracks interacts with some other part of the rules in a way that causes problems?

It's not like this comes up very often, so I'm not all bent out of shape about it. I'm just curious since I don't see the original rule as wrong in any way, and I'd like to know the reason for the change.

Thanks!

[Forseti]

It might be because the survival skill itself makes no mention of identifying tracks, just following them.

[Reecy]

Actually because

Perception is used to Identify Tracks because anyone can find them...

But only people with Track can follow anything over a 10 difficulty.

It was a clean of the confusion about locating tracks vs Follow them.

[Ashram]

I guess this depends on your definition of "identifying" tracks. You would either use Perception to "identify" tracks as in "Find them on the ground" and/or use a Knowledge: Whatever check to "identify" the creature(s) making the tracks.

[Hobbun]

What would identifying who the tracks belong to (race) fall under? Tha's how I understood 'identify' in the previous description, the roll allowed you determine "Ok, this is a goblin track" instead of an orc (insert any other race) track.

[Tamago]

Reecy wrote:

Actually because

Perception is used to Identify Tracks because anyone can find them...

But only people with Track can follow anything over a 10 difficulty.

It was a clean of the confusion about locating tracks vs Follow them.

Actually, from what I can tell, Survival can be used for both finding and following tracks. Also, anyone who is trained in the skill can follow tracks of any difficulty (assuming they roll high enough); Track only gives a bonus to the roll.

PRD wrote:

Follow Tracks: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the same DCs, but you can't use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.

(emphasis mine)

[Tamago]

Hobbun wrote:

What would identifying who the tracks belong to (race) fall under? Tha's how I understood 'identify' in the previous description, the roll allowed you determine "Ok, this is a goblin track" instead of an orc (insert any other race) track.

To me, that sounds like a Survival roll. Granted, there are no published DCs for that kind of thing, but it sounds like the sort of thing that ought to fall under the category of tracking, which is covered by Survival.

You might make a convincing argument that once a track is found, identifying it should be a Knowledge check (with the Knowledge skill corresponding to the creature type that made the track). I'd probably allow that at my table. But using Survival instead avoids giving away any information ahead of time ("Oh, the GM just asked for a Knowledge: Dungeoneering check, so this track must have been made by some kind of abberation...").

[Are]

I agree that it's an odd thing to remove from the rules, and like you see little (no) reason for doing so.

[Hobbun]

Tamago wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

What would identifying who the tracks belong to (race) fall under? Tha's how I understood 'identify' in the previous description, the roll allowed you determine "Ok, this is a goblin track" instead of an orc (insert any other race) track.

To me, that sounds like a Survival roll. Granted, there are no published DCs for that kind of thing, but it sounds like the sort of thing that ought to fall under the category of tracking, which is covered by Survival.

You might make a convincing argument that once a track is found, identifying it should be a Knowledge check (with the Knowledge skill corresponding to the creature type that made the track). I'd probably allow that at my table. But using Survival instead avoids giving away any information ahead of time ("Oh, the GM just asked for a Knowledge: Dungeoneering check, so this track must have been made by some kind of abberation...").

And this is what my GM has always had identifying tracks (who they belong to) fall under, by making a tracking roll. He has always set the DC.

I agree, you can make a convincing argument for a knowledge check, but then Rangers are finding they need multiple knowledges to identify a track, which I don't agree with. I feel it makes more sense in staying with Survival.

[DM_Blake]

Wasn't this under the Knowledge rules back in 3.x at some point?

It doesn't seem like it belongs to Survival or to Perception - being able to see or follow tracks doesn't seem to suggest that you can differentiate between the boot print of an orc and the boot print of a human, or that you can differentiate between the footprints of a jaguar and the footprints of a cougar.

Also, Knowledge already has the distinction between creature types, so someone with knowledge nature might know how to tell jaguar from cougar, but wouldn't know how to tell orc from human, and vice-versa.

It also doesn't seem like only letting rangers do it makes much sense. If, say, a fighter wanted to learn how to track his prey and ultimately maybe even had more ranks than a ranger (in bizarro world, but run with it), why should we tell the guy with more training in tracking prey that he can't figure out what made the tracks he's following but the ranger with less training can? Hopefully, not just because there's a different word at the top of the ranger's character sheet...

But, there doesn't seem to be any wording in the rules to support any this so it seems like we're in houserule territory here.

On a side note, there are a few archetypes, bloodlines, etc., that had the ability to "follow and identify" tracks just like a ranger and so far, only rangers seem to have been altered to lose the "identify" portion, so if you find one of those non-ranger trackers, apparently they are the only characters in Golarion right now who can identify tracks. For now.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Slight change made here because Survival no longer makes any mention of identifying tracks, just following them.

The wording was cleaned up to dispel any confusion on the topic.

ID'ing the monster based on its tracks seems like a better use for a Knowledge skill anyway.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Tamago]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Slight change made here because Survival no longer makes any mention of identifying tracks, just following them.

The wording was cleaned up to dispel any confusion on the topic.

ID'ing the monster based on its tracks seems like a better use for a Knowledge skill anyway.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Fair enough. Did Survival ever make mention of identifying tracks? I don't see it at all in the 1st-to-5th printing errata document, nor do I see it in the 3.5 SRD.

Personally, I like Survival better than Knowledge as a means of identifying tracks, but I could see a strong argument either way.

Thanks for responding!

[Forseti]

Yay, I got it right. :D

[Reecy]

Survival Never actually mentioned Identifying tracks...

A few reasons if you ask me

To find Tracks you Perception
To ID the Tracks you need the appropriate Knowledge check
Then to Follow them for any difficulty over 10 would need the Track Skill

This was basically giving the Ranger or any Tracker Every Knowledge Skill under 1 Skill.

[Reecy]

Survival
(Wis)

You are skilled at surviving in the wild and at navigating in the wilderness. You also excel at following trails and tracks left by others.

Check: You can keep yourself and others safe and fed in the wild. The table below gives the DCs for various tasks that require Survival checks.
Survival DC Task
10 Get along in the wild. Move up to half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10.
15 Gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saves against severe weather while moving up to half your overland speed, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary. You may grant the same bonus to one other character for every 1 point by which your Survival check result exceeds 15.
15 Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
15 Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance.

Follow Tracks: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the same DCs, but you can't use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.

You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check). The DC depends on the surface and the prevailing conditions, as given on the table.
Surface Survival DC
Very soft ground 5
Soft ground 10
Firm ground 15
Hard ground 20

Very Soft Ground: Any surface (fresh snow, thick dust, wet mud) that holds deep, clear impressions of footprints.

Soft Ground: Any surface soft enough to yield to pressure, but firmer than wet mud or fresh snow, in which a creature leaves frequent but shallow footprints.

Firm Ground: Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.

Hard Ground: Any surface that doesn't hold footprints at all, such as bare rock or an indoor floor. Most streambeds fall into this category, since any footprints left behind are obscured or washed away. The creature leaves only traces (scuff marks or displaced pebbles).
Condition Survival DC Modifier
Every three creatures in the group being tracked –1
Size of creature or creatures being tracked:1
Fine +8
Diminutive +4
Tiny +2
Small +1
Medium +0
Large –1
Huge –2
Gargantuan –4
Colossal –8
Every 24 hours since the trail was made +1
Every hour of rain since the trail was made +1
Fresh snow since the trail was made +10
Poor visibility:2
Overcast or moonless night +6
Moonlight +3
Fog or precipitation +3
Tracked party hides trail (and moves at half speed) +5
1 For a group of mixed sizes, apply only the modifier for the largest size category.
2 Apply only the largest modifier from this category.

Several modifiers may apply to the Survival check, as given on the table above.

Action: Varies. A single Survival check may represent activity over the course of hours or a full day. A Survival check made to find tracks is at least a full-round action, and it may take even longer.

Try Again: Varies. For getting along in the wild or for gaining the Fortitude save bonus noted in the first table above, you make a Survival check once every 24 hours. The result of that check applies until the next check is made. To avoid getting lost or avoid natural hazards, you make a Survival check whenever the situation calls for one. Retries to avoid getting lost in a specific situation or to avoid a specific natural hazard are not allowed. For finding tracks, you can retry a failed check after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching.

Special: If you are trained in Survival, you can automatically determine where true north lies in relation to yourself.

A ranger gains a bonus on Survival checks when using this skill to find or follow the tracks of a favored enemy.

If you have the Self-Sufficient feat, you get a bonus on Survival checks (see Feats).