Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, Ryan doesn't intend to let you know who you're buying from on the Market, so it's not like my enemies will be able to organize a boycott or punish other players for buying Goblin Balls from me.An aside, but can you point me at the basis of this assertion? I find it odd.
Just like you don't know where the gas in your car came from, you won't know where the stuff you buy on the market comes from. Once it goes into the market it becomes anonymized.
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The reason for this is to avoid griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're suggesting that I shouldn't be able to spend real-world money and go to another Settlement to pick up gear. But that's exactly what I'll be able to do anyway by buying Goblin Balls, selling them on the market, going to another Settlement and buying gear on the in-game market.
Yup. There will always be players that convert real world currency into game coin. It will be above the table or below it.
@Nihimon
With relation to point 3 perhaps I should have explained my answer more fully
Given that it seems a lot of people object to selling the sword in the cash shop, and given GW wants to make money off the cash shop then it seems sensible to use the solution that keeps both sides happy which is to get the player to buy a goblin ball in the shop (GW get their money) convert it to coin and buy a player made weapon (people who don't want items in the cash shop are happy). That is why I felt the answer was sufficient. I can see no reason for GW to annoy a percentage of their customers for no extra gain.
On your point about the economic warfare front, Goblin balls don't help you because you may have money coming in but you still do not have goods coming into your settlement. The economic warfare side encompasses disrupting your gathering and raiding any external supply lines you may have to slow the goods down to a trickle as much as possible. Having all that coin from the goblin balls do not actually help.
In addition strangely if I am interdicting your settlement buying Goblin balls and selling them for coin won't help you anyway for the very reason that you will be selling your goblin ball on your settlements market place. Therefore the money you are getting was money already owned by someone in your own settlement. All you have done is shift it from one wallet to another without changing the total coin in the settlement.
@Nihimon
As a quick addendum while Ryan has suggested they may for instance offer potions on the cash shop I personally assume this is open for crowd forging still and my answer to potions is I really do not want them there, I would live with them if they were but wouldn't like it but that is about as far as I would want to see them go and I hope we can persuade them not to by selling lots of other things.
As a positive contribution to the shop
One thing I would be willing to buy is something I don't really have a name for. Call it a user object perhaps
It is a generic object where the buyer can set the following properties on it
Item title
Item text
Item action
What would it be used for? here is an example
Item title : Music Box
Item text : A small finely laquered wooden box with a rose motif on the lid
Item action: (right click on item) /em lifting the lid of the box releases a tinkling tune.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On your point about the economic warfare front, Goblin balls don't help you because you may have money coming in but you still do not have goods coming into your settlement. The economic warfare side encompasses disrupting your gathering and raiding any external supply lines you may have to slow the goods down to a trickle as much as possible. Having all that coin from the goblin balls do not actually help.
In addition strangely if I am interdicting your settlement buying Goblin balls and selling them for coin won't help you anyway for the very reason that you will be selling your goblin ball on your settlements market place. Therefore the money you are getting was money already owned by someone in your own settlement. All you have done is shift it from one wallet to another without changing the total coin in the settlement.
If you're able to stop me from traveling to another Settlement to sell my Goblin Balls there, then you're also able to stop me from traveling to an NPC Settlement to pick up my SkyMetal Sword.
If you're not able to stop me from traveling to another Settlement to sell my Goblin Balls, then you're also not able to stop me from buying a player-crafted Sword there.
@Nihimon but you missed the point where I explained that using the goblin ball route did not annoy those that want no gear in the cash shop whilst still getting goblin works the money. A win win situation. Whereas a sky metal sword gets goblinworks the money but annoys all the people who do not want to see gear sold by the cash shop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon,
I agree Goblin Balls are problematic as well and really have no place in a game of this type but as Zen has pointed out, they aren't quite as problematic as direct cash shop purchase of equipment.
So you have in-game silver...unless you plan to fire silver coins at your enemy that doesn't help you in warfare directly.
You have to translate that coin into material goods (swords, arrows, healing potions) which CAN help you in combat...
If your local infrastructure is destroyed, you'll need to arrange to import those goods from elsewhere. Unlike Goblin Balls purchase of goods in game is NOT anonymous. Importers can be affected diplomaticaly (human to human interaction) or with targeted attacks. Regular shipments can be interdicted. Additionaly because you are no longer producing anything and must turn to outside producers, purchasing competition for those goods is likely to rise, creating scarcity conditions....where the goods may not be available even if you had the coin to purchase them and the ability to transport them.
With Goblin Balls, at least you aren't introducing war material OUT OF THIN AIR.....
With RMT...
- I can never convince (or force) the cash shop NOT to sell you an item.
- I can never introduce a scarcity condition where production capacity of an item simply doesn't exist because I've destroyed yours....and outside producers still have thier own settlements, allies and regular customers needs to fulfill before they are willing to sell to you.
- I can never force you to go to multiple, far away disparate sources.... spreading your manpower thin to transport the item....making it easier for me to wage an interdiction campaign.
Goblin Balls are bad....and they really don't belong in this sort of game....but direct cash shop purchases of items and material are even worse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon but you missed the point where I explained that using the goblin ball route did not annoy those that want no gear in the cash shop whilst still getting goblin works the money. A win win situation. Whereas a sky metal sword gets goblinworks the money but annoys all the people who do not want to see gear sold by the cash shop.
I don't believe I've ignored this point. I believe I've repeatedly addressed it.
I am aware that there are people - probably many people - who don't want anything that can be crafted by players to be sold in the Cash Shop. I believe it's a moot point, and that there almost certainly will be player-crafted-equivalent items in the Cash Shop. I believe this is borne out by the quote from Ryan that I have repeatedly referenced.
If A is going to be in the Cash Shop, and your objection to B being in the Cash Shop is that "Neither A nor B should be in the Cash Shop", then I don't consider that a rational objection.
@Nihimon
We have seen the developers change their minds before, many of us I think wish to change their minds on that issue. That is the purpose of crowdforging.
A is not in the cash shop until A is in the cash shop and until it is I will stay here arguing for why it shouldn't be.
From the crowd forging point of view therefore arguing they should rethink A being in the cash shop is perfectly rational. Judging from other posters in this thread it seems an opinion that I am not alone in
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Goblin Squad Member
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Merchant - This is why I keep referencing the quote from Ryan where he acknowledges that there will be items in the Cash Shop that could be crafted by players. Arguing that an item should not be in the Cash Shop because that takes away a possible sale from a player is moot - it's already been acknowledged. This also applies to Crafters, Processors, Guards, and Harvesters.
Not only that, but having the ability to provide such items in the cash store is a way to ensure player merchants in collusion do not hyperinflate the value of said sword but keep its price below or at most equal to what is available for cash.
It is a potential regulator valve GW can open or close as needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, under your suggestion, what incentive is there for someone to rely on the lengthy and unpredictable supply chain required to produce high end gear, over the unilateral action of purchasing it from the cash shop? Above simply being unable to afford the item through out of game means. Put differently, what prevents the in-game methodology (gatherers, refiners, crafters, transporters) from becoming the "fall back" option?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A is not in the cash shop until A is in the cash shop and until it is I will stay here arguing for why it shouldn't be.
I understand this position. I addressed it directly many pages ago.
@Gambit - our MTX store will have items with in-game mechanical effects.
Our commitment to the player community is that none of those things will be the best in the game - a player crafted item will always be at least as good, if not better, than anything you can buy in the store. And we do not intend to put items into the store that are more than "convenience" items; things that are primarily consumables and that simply help reduce some of the minor irritations of playing.
There will be lots of bling, lots of mounts, lots of flashy sparkly bits.
The place where we draw the line between "pay-to-win" and "convenience" will almost certainly change over time as the game and the market develops. But I cannot imagine a time when the people who play the game would feel compelled to make MTX purchases for gear.
RyanD
There will likely be convenience items in the cash shop that have analogs that can be crafted by players like potions of healing. They won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself, and the point of making them available for sale is just to reduce player frustration not force people to buy stuff.I would encourage you to accept this inevitability and work toward shaping it, rather than futilely working to stop it. Naturally, you're free to ignore my encouragement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, under your suggestion, what incentive is there for someone to rely on the lengthy and unpredictable supply chain required to produce high end gear, over the unilateral action of purchasing it from the cash shop? Above simply being unable to afford the item through out of game means. Put differently, what prevents the in-game methodology (gatherers, refiners, crafters, transporters) from becoming the "fall back" option?
I don't know.
What prevents this in the case of the "convenience items" and "items with in-game mechanical effects" that Goblinworks is already almost certainly going to have in the Cash Shop?
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Goblin Squad Member
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On your point about the economic warfare front, Goblin balls don't help you because you may have money coming in but you still do not have goods coming into your settlement. The economic warfare side encompasses disrupting your gathering and raiding any external supply lines you may have to slow the goods down to a trickle as much as possible. Having all that coin from the goblin balls do not actually help.
In addition strangely if I am interdicting your settlement buying Goblin balls and selling them for coin won't help you anyway for the very reason that you will be selling your goblin ball on your settlements market place. Therefore the money you are getting was money already owned by someone in your own settlement. All you have done is shift it from one wallet to another without changing the total coin in the settlement.
If you're able to stop me from traveling to another Settlement to sell my Goblin Balls there, then you're also able to stop me from traveling to an NPC Settlement to pick up my SkyMetal Sword.
If you're not able to stop me from traveling to another Settlement to sell my Goblin Balls, then you're also not able to stop me from buying a player-crafted Sword there.
Not equivalent....
- You can't be assured that there are sufficient purchasers whereever you go to buy the quantity of Goblin Balls you need to unload in the time-frame you need to unload them.
- Even if you have the coin, you can't be assured that there is sufficient production capacity where-ever you will go to fill your need, in the timeframe you need it. Remember these Producers are used to producing for a specific market size...they won't be attuned to having a large amount of surplus laying about just waiting for you to buy it. They also may have other customers with needs they will first....and money won't neccesarly be the only consideration they have in terms of who gets priority for thier product.
- I can actualy DO something about the human producers/merchants you will need to buy from either through diplomacy or force.
- Even if you CAN find buyers for your Goblin Balls and sufficient Suppliers for your war material....there is a very good chance you'll have to go to MULTIPLE different sources/settlements for it. If you have to split your forces into protecting multiple different supply convoys I have a MUCH easier time interdicting them by destroying them peicemeal.
If A is going to be in the Cash Shop, and your objection to B being in the Cash Shop is that "Neither A nor B should be in the Cash Shop", then I don't consider that a rational objection.
You may have addressed it but I was replying to that statement in the only way I can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon but you missed the point where I explained that using the goblin ball route did not annoy those that want no gear in the cash shop whilst still getting goblin works the money. A win win situation. Whereas a sky metal sword gets goblinworks the money but annoys all the people who do not want to see gear sold by the cash shop.I don't believe I've ignored this point. I believe I've repeatedly addressed it.
I am aware that there are people - probably many people - who don't want anything that can be crafted by players to be sold in the Cash Shop. I believe it's a moot point, and that there almost certainly will be player-crafted-equivalent items in the Cash Shop. I believe this is borne out by the quote from Ryan that I have repeatedly referenced.
If A is going to be in the Cash Shop, and your objection to B being in the Cash Shop is that "Neither A nor B should be in the Cash Shop", then I don't consider that a rational objection.
I think this is the fundamental disconnect here. You believe that because Ryan said at some point that there almost certainly will be these items in the cash shop, arguing against that sort of thing being in the cash shop is a moot point. Is this correct?
The rest of us are approaching this as still being in the crowdforging stage, in which we hope to demonstrate that doing that (a) seriously annoys some percentage of players, (b) damages the principle of Meaningful Character Interaction by making the in-game market (and the players who produce for it) unnecessary, and (c) isn't necessary (because the items can be bought on the in-game market using coin obtained from selling Goblin Balls).
Calling a crowdforging conversation a moot point is really disheartening. It'll be a moot point when the cash shop is in and its offerings are set, but until then, it's open for debate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, under your suggestion, what incentive is there for someone to rely on the lengthy and unpredictable supply chain required to produce high end gear, over the unilateral action of purchasing it from the cash shop? Above simply being unable to afford the item through out of game means. Put differently, what prevents the in-game methodology (gatherers, refiners, crafters, transporters) from becoming the "fall back" option?I don't know.
What prevents this in the case of the "convenience items" and "items with in-game mechanical effects" that Goblinworks is already almost certainly going to have in the Cash Shop?
Scope and churn. By your own quote above, the current plan is to limit it to consumables, which are enhancers to a base (in the form of equipment) built on player effort. Consumables will need to be purchased frequently, driving the cost of them as a standard operating method much higher than less frequently replaced gear. A character cannot become self-sufficient via such a cash shop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, under your suggestion, what incentive is there for someone to rely on the lengthy and unpredictable supply chain required to produce high end gear, over the unilateral action of purchasing it from the cash shop? Above simply being unable to afford the item through out of game means. Put differently, what prevents the in-game methodology (gatherers, refiners, crafters, transporters) from becoming the "fall back" option?I don't know.
What prevents this in the case of the "convenience items" and "items with in-game mechanical effects" that Goblinworks is already almost certainly going to have in the Cash Shop?
As part of thier target audience we DO have some capacity to effect what will be sold in thier store. IF they believe that offering an item will cost them more revenue in disatisfied customers then gained from sale of the item then they may well rethink thier decision to offer said item.
Further, offering SOME item is not the equivalent of offering ANY and EVERY item. Offering items of lower importance in game play WILL have a lesser effect on the game then items of greater importance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
The rest of us are approaching this as still being in the crowdforging stage, in which we hope to demonstrate that doing that (a) seriously annoys some percentage of players, (b) damages the principle of Meaningful Character Interaction by making the in-game market (and the players who produce for it) unnecessary, and (c) isn't necessary (because the items can be bought on the in-game market using coin obtained from selling Goblin Balls).Calling a crowdforging conversation a moot point is really disheartening. It'll be a moot point when the cash shop is in and its offerings are set, but until then, it's open for debate.
Sure it is open to debate but while we are attempting to crowdforge we are doing so from only a partial dataset. While GW has been quite admirably forthcoming there are still many thing we do not know. I can't say we are trying to assert judgment from a basis of ignorance, but if there is a potential control valve on the players' in-game market for GW they should take care to preserve it as a potential regulatory mechanism rather than eliminate it altogether.
You know as well as I do that players will game the system. Where players conspire to control the price of a commodity, be that a skymetal sword or a lump of coal then it would behoove the developer to maintain a way to counteract any such player device by fiat. If everyone wants the uber skymetal sword and players are pushing the prices so high it might break the game then offering a skymetal sword on the cash store could conceivably save the game economy and consequently the game. So they should say they MIGHT and avoid saying they would NEVER.
Many of those of us objecting to items of equipment being part of a cash shop offering have been quite forthcoming and constructive in what we feel we could live with such as cosmetic skins for items upto and including settlement buildings, rp items, emotes,account items such as character slots, extra bank storage etc.
It is not like we are digging our heels in and saying no cash shop even though a lot of us would prefer that option
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel, in case you missed it earlier, the constraint I'm talking about is that you would have to go to an NPC Settlement in order to take delivery of anything that was bought in the Cash Shop.
Yes, I was very well aware of that.....see the responses I provided above.
Forcing delivery to an NPC settlement, adds some minimal mitigation to the issue but is hardly the equivalent of forcing one to go to individual player producers for said material.You are still creating war material out of thin air with no limiting factors and with dependency upon nothing but your wallet and the ability to click a "Buy" button for assured delivery to you.
It is about as close as to "Pay 2 Win" as I could imagine for this type of game.....
It's the equivalent of buying a limitless amount of Panzer tank in a wargame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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- You can't be assured that there are sufficient purchasers whereever you go to buy the quantity of Goblin Balls you need to unload in the time-frame you need to unload them.
Quite right. I acknowledged as much earlier. However, I don't believe it's as important as it might seem at first blush. What if the character was already wealthy with in-game Coin?
Here's my point: if you're going to object to my ability to bypass your Siege and supply myself or my Settlement without your ability to interfere with that, then you should object to any mechanics which allow me to do that, regardless of whether or not they involve real money.
If it's perfectly acceptable for a character who is wealthy with in-game Coin to go to another Settlement and pick up supplies and try to bring them back to the Besieged Settlement, then why isn't it acceptable for a character geenerally to be able to go to another Settlement and pick up supplies?
- Even if you have the coin, you can't be assured that there is sufficient production capacity where-ever you will go to fill your need, in the timeframe you need it. Remember these Producers are used to producing for a specific market size...they won't be attuned to having a large amount of surplus laying about just waiting for you to buy it.
This is another valid point. I'm not sure what the answer to it is, or if there's an answer. My first thought is that it's not that big a deal, because I still have to transport it back to my Settlement.
In essence, the potential that I could accomplish the same exact result entirely inside the game is justification for being able to accomplish it with real money.
Keep in mind that Ryan has made it very clear that attempts to totally dominate the market won't be allowed, so it's not like you're going to be able to corner the market on whatever materiel I actually need.
- I can actualy DO something about the human producers/merchants you will need to buy from either through diplomacy or force.
I don't think so. I won't even know who I'm buying from; it's highly doubtful you will.
- Even if you CAN find buyers for your Goblin Balls and sufficient Suppliers for your war material....there is a very good chance you'll have to go to MULTIPLE different sources/settlements for it. If you have to split your forces into protecting multiple different supply convoys I have a MUCH easier time interdicting them by destroying them peicemeal.
Another very good point, but doesn't it cut both ways? If I can resupply at any PC Settlement with a Market, you have to spread your forces very thin to identify where I actually am resupplying. If I'm forced to use one of the NPC Settlements, you'll have a much better chance of actually confronting me in open battle. If you couldn't defeat my full force in open battle, then you wouldn't be Sieging me. In fact, I would think you would welcome the opportunity to get me massed outside of my walls.
@Being they have already said they would step in and have a word if people tried cornering the market and they only saw it as possible in the early days anyway.
They do not need a control valve when a simple email will do the job the players will be more than capable of regulating the market all by themselves just as happens in Eve after a few months as it will be too big for a group to corner any part of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may or may not interest anyone, but is the video that got me so interested in the game: Ryan Dancey Interview
Particularly: 12:55 - 14:12. Hard to explain but it seemed to bring back that feeling I had when I first discovered This: Chainmail in 1975. That "magical" feeling that caught me and got me so enthusiastic that I had to have everything published by them, and later TSR, and had to rope my closest friends into it also. The rest is a boring history, but slowly the "magic" became more and more difficult to recapture.
The re emergence of that enthusiasm would be terribly wrecked if GW does decide to sell "those things" on the cash shop.
Granted, there is nothing in the video about cash shops or any promises about what would be sold in it and what wouldn't. I fully acknowledge that. Nor am I saying that GW has defined what they want to do there. Just so we are clear on that issue.
I missed the kickstarters but I am very interested in the upcoming chance to pledge to the cause. Of course, I am also motivated by any goodies that will come with that. However, I am very opposed to craftables or resources being for sale in the cash shop. The whole direction of this thread, while not started or driven by GW, makes me want to know "what" their plans are for the cash shop before I fork out a large amount of cash to support the game.
I fully realize that I am "just one person" among Thousands. That my contribution would hardly make a singular difference, measured against the whole. I think that this direction of discussion is putting pressure on GW to better "define" their plans on this subject. I have no idea if they will or not. I have no idea if they are even ready to do so. It would be courteous to all of the past and future pledgers if they did. I am not so egotistical as to suggest that GW is now "backed into a corner" and has to address this. I am just saying that at least "one little person" would like to know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You believe that because Ryan said at some point that there almost certainly will be these items in the cash shop, arguing against that sort of thing being in the cash shop is a moot point. Is this correct?
That's correct.
The rest of us are approaching this as still being in the crowdforging stage...
It'll be a moot point when the cash shop is in and its offerings are set, but until then, it's open for debate.
I understand what you're saying, and I'm sympathetic to the position you're taking. Truth be told, a part of me would be thrilled if PFO never sold anything in the Cash Shop that could have been crafted by players.
However, there's another part of me that sees resistance to this in the same light as I see resistance to the idea that PFO will be Open PvP. I've seen a number of people argue passionately that it's not too late to change Goblinworks' mind about providing a PvE Server.
I'm genuinely sorry if it's disheartening to you. I've been impressed by your posts and I've often looked for ways to try to positively engage you.
@Nihimon
The two things are not at all the same.
PVP is integral to the game
whether or not the cash shop contains actual items is not integral to the fabric of the game. As long as goblin works have enough money making items in the cash shop then they can forgo anything that can be made by players. Conflating the two opinions is incorrect
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scope and churn. By your own quote above, the current plan is to limit it to consumables...
That's true, and you're absolutely right if it's limited to consumables.
With respect to actual gear in the Cash Shop, I would hope that Goblinworks would commit to only offering items that had player-crafted equivalents "readily available" in the in-game market at a better price. That's one of the boundary conditions I've identified as being important. I would think that, in that environment, the Cash Shop items would remain "bling", and would not result in the in-game market being a "fallback option".
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On a slightly lighter note...surely the last 5 pages have firmly welded the name Goblin Balls into the collective PfO consciousness :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are still creating war material out of thin air with no limiting factors...
This is a very valid point. But rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I would prefer to poke around the edges of this problem and see what reasonable constraints might be put in place.
Perhaps there is a reasonable way to constrain characters from purchasing such materiel from the Cash Shop if their Settlement is at War.
Perhaps instead of taking delivery at an NPC Settlement, you must take delivery at your own Settlement's Cash Shop Structure, but the Cash Shop Structure is one of the easiest things for a Sieging Army to disable.
Yes, the "out of thin air with no limiting factors" thing will still apply, but then it will always apply to everything sold in the Cash Shop.
@Nihimon
Lets try another tack
Why do you see being able to buy a sword directly preferable to using in game coin from buying and selling Goblin balls?
Forget all the other issues about buying it in whatever settlement. Why is it better to buy directly from the shop rather than the other method?
The two things are not at all the same.
PVP is integral to the game
I believe that the Cash Shop is integral to the success of Goblinworks as a company.
There are many people who believe that PvP is not integral to the game.
But most people aren't arguing there should be no cash shop we are arguing about the contents of the cash shop. The contents of the cash shop are not the same as arguing no pvp
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if there are equivalencies in the market, this would still mean that the cash shop becomes a way for players to be entirely self-sufficient.
First, I never assumed that Goblinworks would offer an entire array of all player-crafted items for sale in the Cash Shop. I always assumed that, if they did it at all, it would be special cases of a particular item, perhaps only for a limited time.
I would gladly accept this as a new boundary condition: that the Cash Shop never have a wide enough variety of gear to fully equip a character. I would not object to further refinement, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a slightly lighter note...surely the last 5 pages have firmly welded the name Goblin Balls into the collective PfO consciousness :)
Ahah! My Real Plan has been discovered!
*grins*
Why do you see being able to buy a sword directly preferable to using in game coin from buying and selling Goblin balls?
I don't, and never have.
What I see is the potential that Goblinworks will want to sell a Cool Item. If they decide to do that, I want us to already have given them a very clear indication of what the acceptable boundary conditions are.
I am largely playing Devil's Advocate here. I am not arguing that they should. I am trying to give them guidance if they do. This is why arguments to the effect of "they shouldn't" aren't compelling to me. They beg the question.
The contents of the cash shop are not the same as arguing no pvp
Clearly, it's not an exact analogy. However, I maintain that there is something significantly similar about both positions.
@Nihimon
You cannot have meaningful kingdom building without PVP
Kingdom building is the core of the game therefore while many may believe as you claim PVP is not necessary it does not make them correct.
Here I do not want a cash shop however I am willing to concede the necessity and am merely using crowdforging to try and swing what is sold in it.
The two positions are not at all similar
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
In game coin IS a measure of how well a character/settlement has done in a game of this sort...but in terms of war effort that coin still must be converted into something concretely usefull....any army can't eat coin, nor can it be loaded into a bow.
Allowing for a player to purchase coin with RMT is a bad distortion of the gameplay of the sort of game we are talking about. Allowing a player to purchase war material directly is even worse.
In direct response...
"Here's my point: if you're going to object to my ability to bypass your Siege and supply myself or my Settlement without your ability to interfere with that, then you should object to any mechanics which allow me to do that, regardless of whether or not they involve real money."
- No because, having coin that you actualy earned IN GAME is a measure of how well you played the game. In the same manner that I wouldn't object if you had 50 peices in Risk to use in attack against me because you had chosen which territories to capture wisely....but I darn well would if you had pulled out a $20 bill to buy them from the guy running the game.
"In essence, the potential that I could accomplish the same exact result entirely inside the game is justification for being able to accomplish it with real money."
- What you are just describing is using RMT to circumvent meaningfull competitive gameplay in order to achieve a favorable result (a.k.a. "Pay 2 Win")
"Keep in mind that Ryan has made it very clear that attempts to totally dominate the market won't be allowed, so it's not like you're going to be able to corner the market on whatever materiel I actually need."
- No one says I have to corner the market. There may be 500 different settlements that all own (and are consuming) some portion of the market in a particular material...but they all have thier OWN needs for it. If there isn't enough surplus of that material sitting around for you to purchase (e.g. what is leftover after they've filled thier own needs) IN THE TIMEFRAME YOU NEED IT....then you've been weakend in a way you never could with RMT.
"If I can resupply at any PC Settlement with a Market, you have to spread your forces very thin to identify where I actually am resupplying. If I'm forced to use one of the NPC Settlements, you'll have a much better chance of actually confronting me in open battle. If you couldn't defeat my full force in open battle, then you wouldn't be Sieging me. In fact, I would think you would welcome the opportunity to get me massed outside of my walls. "
- I don't need to send forces out to every PC Settlement in the World. All I need is forces that are faster then yours when you are transporting gear. Some understanding of your POTENTIAL markets...or a good intel source on the inside of your operation (e.g. I pay off someone like Bluddwulf). I'm NOT Seiging you yet...I'm not interested in confronting you in open battle until I've degraded your forces ability to fight effectively...that includes your capacity to produce war material and whatever war material you have in supply stocks or strategic reserve. If I can start hitting your strung out individual supply convoys peicemeal then I'm going to start bleeding you through your reserves of war material....you'll have more going out then coming in. If you can choose to concentrate that in one big shipment in a place and time of your choosing....and concentrate your force to protect....I no longer have the advantage of localized numbers nor initiative. I'm MUCH worse off.
What I see is the potential that Goblinworks will want to sell a Cool Item. If they decide to do that, I want us to already have given them a very clear indication of what the acceptable boundary conditions are.
And that is what I and some others are doing. The fact you disagree on where we feel the boundaries should be is not relevant.
The boundaries to me is cosmetic and convenience items only as listed before. No items that are also made by players in anyway shape or form
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Goblin Squad Member
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In game coin IS a measure of how well a character/settlement has done in a game of this sort...
Is it? Even if all of my in-game Coin has come from selling Goblin Balls?
- What you are just describing is using RMT to circumvent meaningfull competitive gameplay in order to achieve a favorable result (a.k.a. "Pay 2 Win")
I am pointing out that there are already mechanisms in place that will allow this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being they have already said they would step in and have a word if people tried cornering the market and they only saw it as possible in the early days anyway.
They do not need a control valve when a simple email will do the job the players will be more than capable of regulating the market all by themselves just as happens in Eve after a few months as it will be too big for a group to corner any part of.
Maybe. If the email doesn't work well then it would be better to have that valve available as an intermediate step to account suspension. Having the ability to do so is different from doing so. If there is a potential regulating mechanism why eliminate it with any statement limiting their options for dealing with the unforeseen?
@GrumpyMel
I am not sure you are correct here on coin being the measure of winning. It is in Eve because losses in war can be measured via kill mail. However I suspect in PfO. Hex control will be the measure
@Being because it involves selling gear on the cash shop and I believe that to be bad for all the reasons I have detailed. The cure is worse than the disease sometimes
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon,
Despite the fact that many of would prefer no cash shop what-so-ever, we've pretty much all accepted that there will be one.....and if you've looked we've all offered suggestions as to what they might be.
For me those suggestions just don't include things that circumvent core gameplay. A large part of the game is based around the concept of competition for resources and production of usefull gear/equipment with those resources. Offering important resources/gear therefore circumvents (and renders null) a very core feature of the gameplay that the game is built around.
Again, it would be like when playing Risk if I could simply buy as many armies as I wanted. What would actualy be the point of playing the game in the first place. If we wanted to make a contest based upon who would spend more money...we could just do away with the game and stand around burning dollar bills until one of us had enough.
An acceptable Cash Shop is one that doesn't offer things that circumvent core game-play features. There are a TON of things it could offer that don't....but not what you describe....and frankly not really what Ryan initialy alluded to as well...although he was pretty general in his allusions so I'm waiting to hear more clarification before I raise a "Pay 2 Win" flag and walk away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease it is true. But eliminating an option you might need for the unforeseen seems shortsighted. Having the ability to sell gear does not mean selling gear. It means you could were there sufficient reason. I don't agree with Nihimon that they will sell such gear to make money: I think they will make money anyway. But at the same time, keeping possibly needed options open when you can is prudent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In game coin IS a measure of how well a character/settlement has done in a game of this sort...Is it? Even if all of my in-game Coin has come from selling Goblin Balls?
- What you are just describing is using RMT to circumvent meaningfull competitive gameplay in order to achieve a favorable result (a.k.a. "Pay 2 Win")I am pointing out that there are already mechanisms in place that will allow this.
Yeah....I've already pointed out that I think Goblin Balls are very bad and have no place in this sort of game....but direct cash sales are an order of magnitude worse beyond that.
Let's put it this way....
Goblin Balls = 4 on the "suck-itude" scale
RMT Gear/Materials Sales = 8 on "suck-itude" scale
8 > 4
Is that clear enough?
@Being
Players will be able to take the matter into their own hands in terms of raw materials as the devs have indicated they will respawn randomly. In terms of crafted goods...do you really think if one group tries driving the cost of a sword of wanging through the roof other crafters won't start churning them out as the price rises?
I do understand the concerns I however side with Ryan on this one though I really don't see it as being possible to pull off once the game is more than a couple of months old.
In addition if the email doesn't work there are many sanctions short of the ban hammer. For instance they can "fine" the players and many other creative ways.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease it is true. But eliminating an option you might need for the unforeseen seems shortsighted. Having the ability to sell gear does not mean selling gear. It means you could were there sufficient reason. I don't agree with Nihimon that they will sell such gear to make money: I think they will make money anyway. But at the same time, keeping possibly needed options open when you can is prudent.
They always have the possibility Being.....they have the possibility to sell "Phaser II's" and "Porche 911's" in the Cash Shop if they wanted.
We're not talking about what possibilties they have....we're talking about what they AUGHT to do....and what we'll individualy tolerate as customers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease it is true. But eliminating an option you might need for the unforeseen seems shortsighted. Having the ability to sell gear does not mean selling gear. It means you could were there sufficient reason. I don't agree with Nihimon that they will sell such gear to make money: I think they will make money anyway. But at the same time, keeping possibly needed options open when you can is prudent.
They can always do anything that they like. It seems important, though, to discourage them from doing unpopular things just because they can....