This won't fix everything everyone rants about with class imbalance, but I've been thinking a lot lately about MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent) classes and why they're harder to balance. I don't think it's justified.
In looking at which classes are the most MAD (Monk at the top of the list) and least MAD (Wizard), it strikes me that the most MAD classes are often considered to be at the low end of the power scale while the least MAD classes are often at the top end of that scale. That doesn't make sense, unless the problem IS that some are MAD and others are not.
But I don't think that's all of it - make a wizard more MAD and his WISH spells will still rattle the universe, and make a monk less MAD and he'll still just punch things in the face. (OK, a bit of an oversimplification there, but not that far from the point).
So I've been thinking about fixing the MAD. One quick fix that came to mind is to hit it right at the time ability scores are generated. To that end, I considered adding a varying number of "points" to ability scores, adding fewer, even 0, to the least MAD classes and adding more to the most MAD.
It's simple. If you're using point-buy, just add these values to your starting points, then buy your abilities as normal. If you're rolling dice, then roll them and assign them by whatever method you use, then add these "points" as individual +1 bonuses that cannot be used more than once on any ability score over 12 and no more than twice on any ability score of 12 or less.
Here's the list:
Alchemist +1
Barbarian +1
Bard +4
Cavalier +2
Cleric +1
Druid +3
Fighter +2
Gunslinger +0
Inquisitor +2
Magus +2
Monk +5
Oracle +1
Paladin +4
Ranger +3
Rogue +3
Sorcerer +0
Summoner +0
Witch +0
Wizard +0
So, first, what are your impressions? Good? Interesting? Stinky?
And second, comparing the classes to each other, does anyone feel that I've allotted too many or too few points to any classes? Again, the scale so far goes from 0 (very much NOT MAD0 to 5 (the most MAD class of all). Please let me know if you disagree with my assessment of which classes are more or less mad than others. Please, if so, offer your reason. For example, if you think fighters should get more because then he could be more useful out of combat, then make sure to include that as your reason - I'm just as interested in the "why" as I am in the "what".
Final note, this isn't intended to totally fix the whole concern with MAD. Maybe it does. Maybe not. Just toying with it to see if this could be a simple way to reduce the impact, then tweak/adjust/supplement from there.
Thanks in advance.
It's not a bad idea at all! I disagree with some of your conclusions - only +1 for clerics, for example, sounds a little odd, considering how important WIS, CHA, STR and CON can be to such characters, not to mention augmenting their piss-poor number of skill points with INT. Then you go and give one of the mightiest of classes - the Paladin - +4. Odd.
But the idea itself - I could see this helping out MAD classes. I guess the number of points warranted for each class will vary significantly from DM to DM.
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first thought is : how does that mesh with multi-classing ?
alternate solutions :
Make multi-ability item boosters a bit cheaper compared to single ability boosting items.
Give increases in pointbuy instead of plain ability increases at level up, or make ability increases inherent into the classes.
Thanks.
Remember, I'm not looking just at power levels. Paladin is definitely powerful, but needing 4 or 5 of the 6 ability scores puts him squarely in the very MAD category. The idea is to fix MAD, not fix power - fixing power is a whole nuther ballgame.
Your point about clerics is well received, though I'll also note that not all of them care about melee and everyone needs CON, so the basic cleric needs just WIS and CHA, while some builds need more, but then, clerics get world-shaking spells too. That's a tough call, but I wouldn't mind seeing clerics as well as many other classes having better INT and more skills.
Not trying to argue or invalidate your points, just trying to clarify where I'm coming from too.
Yes, it would vary from DM to DM to be sure. I'm hoping to get bunches of answers from bunches of people and then settle on a compromised list.
first thought is : how does that mesh with multi-classing ?
I hadn't really thought about that much. I'd hate to see someone game the system by starting with a level of Monk and then go 19 levels of wizard, just so he could have 5 extra ability score points. Still, maybe that wouldn't break the game.
IME, pretty much everyone I've ever seen mutliclass starts out in the class they like the most and dip abilities from other classes. Yeah, I know, some "optimizers" do just the opposite, but I just don't really game with any so I'm the dark on most of that stuff.
Make multi-ability item boosters a bit cheaper compared to single ability boosting items.
I have considered that, but I'm not ready to break the item creation rules for this one issue.
I would rather make the magic items that boost abilities give a scaled bonus that you get more when you boost a lower ability score. For example, a headband of +2 INT would give +4 INT to anyone with an INT less than 12. Still not sure if I would see fighters running around with that just for the free skill and the better INT mod on their knowledge checks...
Give increases in pointbuy instead of plain ability increases at level up, or make ability increases inherent into the classes.
This is also a great idea. Any suggestions on how to implement that? Just dumping this list on characters every 4 levels is way too much bonus for low ability scores and way too hard to increase high ones. You're talking about a whole new idea so I'm guessing you've thought about it more than I have?
I use a rule which gives everybody character points instead of feats, ability score increases and favoured class bonuses.
You can spend the points on all those things plus traits in any combination you want. The lower your score the cheaper it is to raise, so if you have a 12 it'll only cost you 2 CP, while if you have an 18 or higher it costs 8.
It also lets you raise your scores at any level, so severely MAD characters can raise their scores cheaply right from the start.
Make multi-ability item boosters a bit cheaper compared to single ability boosting items.I have considered that, but I'm not ready to break the item creation rules for this one issue.
I would rather make the magic items that boost abilities give a scaled bonus that you get more when you boost a lower ability score. For example, a headband of +2 INT would give +4 INT to anyone with an INT less than 12. Still not sure if I would see fighters running around with that just for the free skill and the better INT mod on their knowledge checks...
Give increases in pointbuy instead of plain ability increases at level up, or make ability increases inherent into the classes.This is also a great idea. Any suggestions on how to implement that? Just dumping this list on characters every 4 levels is way too much bonus for low ability scores and way too hard to increase high ones. You're talking about a whole new idea so I'm guessing you've thought about it more than I have?
No, I didn't think on it much before I am just trying to come up with alternate ideas as I go along.
Lets see for increasing ability scores -
level 4 - 2 points
level 8 - 3 points
level 12 - 4 points
level 16 - 5 points
level 20 - 6 points
This works just like pointbuy, so increasing an ability from 13 to 14 will cost 2 points, from 15 to 16 will cost 3 and so on.
Races have an affinity for ability scores according to the bonus they start with increasing these scores will cost 1 point less for every 2 points of ability bonus they start with :
For example : Elves have an affinity for intelligence and dexterity, increasing these scores will cost 1 point less, dwarves have an affinity for wisdom and constitution.
Increasing an ability score always costs at least 1 point and you can never increase an ability by more than 1 points in a single level increase though you can spend leftover points at any level after, not just levels in which you gain new points.
Additionally the classes can reduce cost to increase ability scores further by decreasing cost by another point, for example :
A monk has affinity for dexterity, constitution and wisdom.
A fighter for strength, dexterity and constitution.
A cleric has affinity for wisdom and charisma.
A wizard for intelligence.
Sample character :
Dwarf fighter 1 (15 PB)
str 15
dex 13
con 16
int 10
wis 12
cha 8
strength increase will cost 3 points -1 from being a fighter = 2
dexterity increase will cost 2 points -1 from being a fighter = 1
constitution increase will cost 3 -1 (fighter) -1 dwarf = 1
intelligence will cost 1 = 1
wisdom will cost 1 -1 (dwarf), would be 0 but minimum is 1 = 1
charisma will cost 1
so at level 4 he could choose to increase 1 point strength or two other attributes of any kind, in this case strength he picks strength +1.
at level 8, costs are still the same but he has 3 points to spend so he chooses strength +1 and dexterity +1 to benefit from armor training.
At level 12 he has 4 points to spend, strength +1 and constitution +1.
Level 16, 5 points and uses 2 to increase constitution to 18, and dexterity by +1 to 15 for 1 point.
Level 17 he still has 2 unused points to use, dexterity +1.
strength 18 (+3)
dexterity 16 (+3)
constitution 18 (+2)
intelligence 10
wisdom 12
charisma 8
I focused entirely on strength this fighter would have :
strength 20 (+5)
dexterity 13
constitution 16
intelligence 10
wisdom 12
charisma 8