Related to this thread.
I’m more of a ‘fluff’ gamer than a ‘crunch’ one, and among the things which really irk me about Pathfinder are stat-buff spells like owl’s wisdom and items that provide similar effects on a character’s baseline ability scores. The problem is ‘the Christmas Tree effect’ - the system essentially assumes most characters have one or more of these items as they get into mid-to-high levels, supporting their primary stat(s).
Here’s what I’d like to do for a Rise of the Runelords campaign, if I ever got to run it:
- All twelve stat-buff spells (bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s wisdom, and their respective mass versions) are removed from all spell-lists.
- Headbands (for mental stats) and belts (for physical stats) are not available. The only items which can enhance a character’s ability-scores are ioun stones or wondrous items which have other effects; these are crafted using rituals and component-recipes which mimic requisite spells like those listed above.
- Similarly, amulets of natural armour are not available.
For the people who are better with the crunch than I am: how much would these restrictions skew the game’s base assumptions and maths, especially at higher levels?
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Well, if you don't alter WBL and substitute different treasures in those spots where the headbands/belts would normally be found, the effect would be noticeable but not necessarily crushing. Because people will spend the money on other magic items; the new "best things". A Christmas tree with different decorations, if you will.
There'll be some side effects though;
* spell/ability save DCs will be lower because those are usually based on Int/Wis/Cha.
* overall AC/HP and saving throws will be slightly lower.
Right now ability boosting items are among the most efficient at what they do. If you remove them, some other items will be the most efficient (remaining) items, and people will try to get those.
There have been various attempts on this forum to figure out alternative solutions;
* reduce WBL but grant "distinctions": feat-like abilities that grant various bonuses to replace magic items that grant those bonuses. Less flexibility in upgrading/trading, but also less risk of losing them through misadventure/theft/sunder.
* reduce WBL but give out some build points every level to upgrade the six base abilities; point buy with points increasing with levels.
As you get into higher CR monsters, the attributes of the monsters spike upwards, leading to greater survivability on their parts. We had a witch in our RotR campaign who, despite starting with an 18 intelligence, found herself being more and more irrelevant as our opponents began needing lower and lower numbers to resist her hexes (with some of them needing low single digit numbers in book 5). This happened partially because we weren't able to acquire headbands and the druid "didn't want to waste spells" buffing party members with those attribute buffing spells. She managed a small boost with the threefold aspect spell, allowing her to assume crone form for an Intelligence boost, but it often wasn't enough. The late game was very frustrating for her.
Question, do you simply not like the stat buff spells, and items, or do you actually not want stats to go any higher then 18 (or 20 with a racial modifier). Because if you simply want to remove the items and spells but keep balance I have a pretty solid solution for you.
Informational: I should have said at the outset that this is really more of a thought-experiment/theory-crafting discussion for me. Time and location factors mean I don't have a regular game of any kind, and I'm unlikely to ever get one. Sorry. :(
That said:
Question, do you simply not like the stat buff spells, and items, or do you actually not want stats to go any higher then 18 (or 20 with a racial modifier). Because if you simply want to remove the items and spells but keep balance I have a pretty solid solution for you.
More towards the latter, really; level-based ability-score rises are fine, as they can be represented as the result of the hard work the character's done up to that point, but beyond that, I'd like to see PCs be able to finish their campaign with the same ability-scores they started it with. Call it an aesthetic thing, but stories like JoeOutside's really, really offend my sensibilities: high-level characters have incredible power at their fingertips, but AFAICT the way the game scales means that in the later part of their careers they're more-or-less forced to resort to 'magic steroids' like headbands, belts, and cloaks of resistance just to use that power with even moderate efficacy, and IMO that just ain't right.
As a 2e grognard I can appreciate the aesthetic of your post and i'm pretty curious to see what koloko has to say...
As a thought experiment would it be balancing enough to also put the same caps on the attributes of all the enemies? I mean giants get size bonuses to damage already. Slapping a +10 damage per swing strength bonus on him as well is going to put him far and away above a group where attributes are stuck in the mid twenties at best....
Or by the same token, if you dont want the whole party in cloaks of resistance just for the sake of 'of course you should be wearing one of those by now...' being thematically kind of lame... Would it be safe to simply get rid of resistance cloaks and then reduce the required saving throws of everything that comes up by 5 by default? Removing the item forces the reduction in the dilemma that the item is meant to cure?
Its true I think easy fixes never turn out as easy as one would like them to. I'm real curious to see what koloko has to say.
As a 2e grognard I can appreciate the aesthetic of your post and i'm pretty curious to see what koloko has to say...
As a thought experiment would it be balancing enough to also put the same caps on the attributes of all the enemies? I mean giants get size bonuses to damage already. Slapping a +10 damage per swing strength bonus on him as well is going to put him far and away above a group where attributes are stuck in the mid twenties at best....
Or by the same token, if you don't want the whole party in cloaks of resistance just for the sake of 'of course you should be wearing one of those by now...' being thematically kind of lame... Would it be safe to simply get rid of resistance cloaks and then reduce the required saving throws of everything that comes up by 5 by default? Removing the item forces the reduction in the dilemma that the item is meant to cure?
Its true I think easy fixes never turn out as easy as one would like them to. I'm real curious to see what koloko has to say.
That might cover a lot of the problems I perceive in the system. Or a scaling bonus to all saving throws, perhaps +1/4 levels, which does much the same thing over the span of a character's advancement.
Of course, there's also this add-on. I've always liked the look of it to cover the dearth of skill-points some classes suffer from (as well as providing a little more granularity in character advancement, which as a long-time Shadowrun fan I don't see as a bad thing); in this instance, it'd be a good way to let characters work for and 'earn' bonus feats that might cover a lot of the gaps in save DCs.
(Of course, combining NUELOW Games' 'Reward Points' system with the Background Skill Points house-rule from Super Genius Games might be overkill.... :rolleyes:)
I think stat boosters you could get away with not too bad (especially if ioun stones were somewhat plentiful). Amulets and cloaks mess with AC and saves too directly. Especially cloaks. When you hit 20+ DCs the fighter or wizard at +2 vs +5 (Will or Fort, or even Reflex) will make a huge difference.
Edit: You know, simpler than all that would be single stat only belts/headbands.