Summoned Creatures and Special Attacks


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Are the Special Attacks/Maneuvers of Summoned creatures enhanced with things such as Augmented Summoning and Bulls Strength? For example is Rend Damage increased? or Powerful Charge. If so, by what formula? Any rules citations to back up your reply will be appreciated.


Yes.

See the special ability in question for details.

For example:

PRD Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus.

Format: rend (2 claws, 1d8+9); Location: Special Attacks.

Augmented Summoning or Bulls Strength or any stat modifying effect will change special abilities that depend on that stat. Like some poison DC's that are Con dependent. Either way, the special ability usually states which stat it is linked to.


Universal Monster Rules: Rend wrote:
The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus.

A bonus to Strength, such as that provided by either Augmented Summoning or Bull's Strength would increase rend damage. Either Augmented Summoning or Bull's Strength give a +4 enhancement bonus to the Strength ability score which would increase the Strength modifier by 2 and ultimately add 3 (multiplying by 1-1/2) additional damage to rend.

Because Augmented Summoning and Bull's Strength both provide an enhancement bonus they do not stack so a +4 bonus to Strength is all you get even if both were applied.


Powerful charge apparently uses fixed damage set by the monster and does not calculate its damage from ability scores so it won't be affected as far as I can tell.


Drejk wrote:
Powerful charge apparently uses fixed damage set by the monster and does not calculate its damage from ability scores so it won't be affected as far as I can tell.

Correct. This is one of the relatively few cases where there is no general rule stated. Though I think this is an oversight which has led to a few mistakes even in published books as I recall.

PRD Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Powerful Charge (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, its attack deals extra damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature's description.

Format: powerful charge (gore, 4d8+24); Location: Special Attacks.


How would it not? It's just another natural attack damage. Where do you think a + anything in addition to damage die comes from?


Buri wrote:
How would it not? It's just another natural attack damage. Where do you think a + anything in addition to damage die comes from?

Because that way lies madness. No formula is given to handle it. Its usually something like 2x the damage of a normal attack but with x1 str bonus both times (where the usual attack is x1.5 str bonus for example from a rhino). But not always. But generally. Sometimes.

Either way, this should be checked with your GM.


Most things in the monster stat blocks are pretty easy to reverse engineer. If it's just 2x a normal attack then simply calculate the base one with adjusted stats and double it. It's perfectly reasonable for a creature who suddenly gets stronger to have their special attacks improve as well.


Buri wrote:
Most things in the monster stat blocks are pretty easy to reverse engineer.

Which is exactly the problem. A player can reverse engineer incorrectly and suddenly their summoned rhinos do insane (or too little) charge damage.

So as mentioned before if doing this, check with your GM. As GM I would allow a modification, but as by RAW the Powerful Charge ability is not linked to Strength (though it would seem obvious that it is right?). Which is why I mentioned that Powerful Charge is an oversight in that it does not give the nice stat linky info like other universal monster abilities.

Scarab Sages

For the sake of having said it, I agree that Strength enchantments should increase the discussed Damages. Since I mostly play PFS, I am trying to gather my opinion and have my reasoning in order in case a Judge cries foul.


A player can goof on their own core stats and be insane. This is little different.


Joko the strength damage increases it. Now proving it to a VC or GM is another story. I will try to find a relevant quote.


Joko PO wrote:
For the sake of having said it, I agree that Strength enchantments should increase the discussed Damages. Since I mostly play PFS, I am trying to gather my opinion and have my reasoning in order in case a Judge cries foul.

Careful here. By RAW Powerful Charge actually cannot change since nowhere does it say it is linked to Strength in any way or form (it may seem to be but until some errata arrives it doesn't.). A GM is fully in his right to deny it. (But who would? really?)


I think it should be FAQ'd so it can be fixed though.

By fixed I mean we can have a formula or some reasonable suggestion to go by.


wraithstrike wrote:

I think it should be FAQ'd so it can be fixed though.

By fixed I mean we can have a formula or some reasonable suggestion to go by.

+1

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