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As requested:
Unfortunately dire bats don't have darkvision.
So do vampires lose their darkvision when they turn into dire bats and do they thus have to rely purely on their low-light vision?
Richard
This is now officially a question that should go over to the rules forum for some FAQ.
Change Shape (Su): A vampire can use change shape to
assume the form of a dire bat or wolf, as beast shape II.
Beast Shape II
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
This spell functions as beast shape I,except that it also allows you
to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type.
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain
the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability),
swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab,
pounce, and trip.
If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all
extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your
original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as
well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed
by your original form. You also lose any class features that
depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features
(such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While
most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of
what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form
is assumed.
DIREBAT CR 2
XP 600
N Large animal
Init+2; Senses blindsense 40 ft.; Perception+12
Verdict: If a vampire's Darkvision is form-based, then the vampire loses it while using Change Shape. I'm of the opinion that a vampire's Darkvision is not form-based.
If a vampire loses its Darkvision, you could attempt to make an argument that a bat's Blindsense 40 ft. is a greater form of Darkvision, and thus you should gain Darkvision even if the spell isn't powerful enough to grant you the form's full ability.
HOWEVER, that ruling would also imply that once you gain access to beast shape III, you gain Darkvision whenever you gain Blindsense. In fact, gaining Darkvision 60 would allow you to see farther than a Dire Bat's blindsense 40. You could have more (better~) senses than the bat. Thus, I am of the opinion that Blindsense is not a greater form of Darkvision.
Since the vampire does not lose it's undead type it would keep the undead traits including darkvision, none of those traits are form based.
whether or not something is unique to a creature species or shared by all with the same type doesn't really speak to whether it is 'form' dependent or not, it may be a shared feature of the 'form' of all creatures of the type. darkvision isn't a Su ability, so it would seem to work just because of the nature of your eyes = form based.
i'm not necessarily expecting the RAW answer to be the most reasonable one, so i'm also hitting FAQ so they can expand it if necessary/desired.
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Since I'm not getting a lot of joy getting this answered, a bit of further research unveils this:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities...the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
It doesn't say which physical qualities are retained, but it does seem to suggest that change shape trumps the polymorph rules so you don't lose all your form related abilities.
Agreed?
Richard
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Change shape say a bit more than that:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.Format: change shape (wolf, beast form I); Location: SQ, and in special abilities for creatures with a unique listing.
The vampire entry say:
SQ change shape (dire bat or wolf, beast shape II), gaseous form, shadowless, spider climb
so it reference beast shape II that not include darkvision.
I would allow him to retain it, but that, is at most, RAI.
Hitting the FAQ button and hoping that the reply will apply to more than the vampire alone.
If the stat bonuses and ability limitations of the spell aren't being used, the only thing left is Size or Creature Type restrictions, but since it gives the specific creatures anyways, those are pretty much superfluous... the ability is Su not Sp, so there is no particular reason it SHOULD reference a spell... mysterious...
already hit FAQ...
Can the same FAQ (should an answer be provided) be applied to, say, a dwarf druid that wildshapes into a darkvision-less creature?
I've always ruled that Templates are applied to the character, and are not removed by spells. So, the Vampire Template, which grants darkvision, is applied to the character, no matter what form it takes. So, therefore, the dire bat would have all the vampire template modifications.
Same for Lich, half-dragon, etc.
That means a half-dragon who uses 'alter self' ends up looking like a half-dragon of whatever he changed into. The template basically is applied last.
I'm expecting my half-dragon in my game to be surprised to find this out. :)
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I actually came back to this because I was wondering whether a doppleganger would lose its natural armour when it changed shape.
That's when I realised that "change shape" specifically specifies that "most" physical qualities are retained - which is totally different to polymorph.
Wildshape, incidentally, is not change shape, AFAICS.
Richard
P.S. Had the debate about template on another thread some while back. I think it might depend on the nature of the template - whether it was "soul" or "form", IMVHO.
I actually came back to this because I was wondering whether a doppleganger would lose its natural armour when it changed shape.
That's when I realised that "change shape" specifically specifies that "most" physical qualities are retained - which is totally different to polymorph.
Wildshape, incidentally, is not change shape, AFAICS.
Richard
P.S. Had the debate about template on another thread some while back. I think it might depend on the nature of the template - whether it was "soul" or "form", IMVHO.
Hmm, Actually, now that I think about it, I believe the final decision I made (it's been awhile) was that applied templates where applied regardless of spell usage. However, inherited templates were genetic and thus polymorph got rid of them (at least temporarily). So, yeah, scratch what I posted above. It's been awhile. Glad this hadn't come up in game yet for the half-dragon. :)
Inherited templates are form things mostly (wings on a half-dragon for example). However, applied templates like vampire, lich, and were are always present because it's applied to you at all times.
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It was mentioned above, but this little flow will answer the question:
1) Do the undead have darkvision?
2) Is the vampire undead?
3) If the vampire changes shape, does it stop being undead?
4) Vampires in their changed form have darkvision.
Do you then apply the same logic to all of the vampire's template based abilities (e.g. natural armour, DR, ER, fast healing, etc)?
Or is it just the type-based abilities?
Richard
Since the vampire does not lose it's undead type it would keep the undead traits including darkvision, none of those traits are form based.
Doesn't the vampire template require the base form to be humanoid? If the vampire is no longer humanoid, then would it not lose its darkvision whilst not in the humanoid form.
This reminds me of my "Lich polymorphs into dragon, which lich abilities are kept?" thread. I urge people to FAQ that one too as it may allow for a more comprehensive clarification.
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It was mentioned above, but this little flow will answer the question:
1) Do the undead have darkvision?
2) Is the vampire undead?
3) If the vampire changes shape, does it stop being undead?
4) Vampires in their changed form have darkvision.Do you then apply the same logic to all of the vampire's template based abilities (e.g. natural armour, DR, ER, fast healing, etc)?
Or is it just the type-based abilities?
Richard
Darkvision is a trait of the undead sub-type. It doesn't stop being undead just because it looks like a dire bat.
Furthermore, the creature doesn't stop being a vampire just because it assumes the form of a dire bat. More importantly, there is nothing in the description of beast shape II that says you lose an ability, rather it only adds things to your base form: if the assumed form has one of the listed abilities, you gain it; if it is a certain size, it modifies your abilities and natural armor accordingly. That's it. You don't lose anything just because the assumed form doesn't normally have it.
To look at it as a dire bat with a vampire template is incorrect. It is a vampire that has some additions that looks like a dire bat. Nothing more.
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You're missing the general bit about polymorph spells.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form ..."
Richard
Thanks for the reality check, Richard. Polymorph Spells are clear enough on that,
although there is some level of confusion over which abilities "depend on [physical] form",
and which don't depend on physical form, but rather on some metaphysical feature (thus, which Polymorph doesn't get rid of).
Regardless of that issue, it doesn't really matter if something is from a 'base' race or a template, inherited or applied.
'Applied' templates are just changing your effective racial qualities as a creature after all,
not much different than being Re-Incarnated as a new race with new abilities.
The relevant rule depends on your 'form', not just your creature type (excluding templates).
I think what MDT was getting at is more applicable to things like Class Abilities which grant things like Claws,
per RAW there isn't a clear reason why those Class Abilities shouldn't still work in any Polymorph form,
although I wouldn't be surprised if any FAQ/Errata on the subject put some limitation there.
Change Shape is just totally incomprehensible, though:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell , the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
It's simultaneously saying it functions like the polymorph spell (which negates your original form-based abilities) and that you retain 'most' physical qualities. If it's making an exception to the rules for polymorph spells, I would think a bit more specificity than 'most' would be in order.
And again, there is just no real need to base it off of the specific spell if basically everything about the spell is being stripped out - At least for Change Shape which specify specific creatures rather than giving you the full gamut allowed by the spell, which AFAIK, is all of them... For any that do intent the full gamut allowed by the spell, it's effectively easier for that rare case to just re-state the desired range of valid forms (e.g. Small/Medium Animals) instead of deriving from a spell for which 99% of the time ALL features are changed, and 1% of the time MOST features are still changed..
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removes any ability limitations of the spells, along with the stat modifiers being superfluous since those aren't applied. The only thing left to matter is creature type, which for the vast majority of Change Shape state a specific list which makes the broader spell list superfluous , and the ones who allow the whole list per the spell probably wouldn't take much more room to just state that independently (e.g. "Tiny to Large Animals") instead of stating the spell name. Then the "retains MOST of its own physical qualities" is hardly that authoritative. Yeesh.