Piccolo, I've seen the random encounter tables. They might surprise you, especially if your players take an unintended detour and your dice are unkind to them. Say, for example, that they decide to grab their inheritances early, before doing anything at all in Ravengro. ;)
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Drop the snark. It only serves to sabotage your purpose.
My irony-meter just overloaded...
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There's a lot of wilderness in episode #2, episode #3 is almost all wilderness, and it comes into a lot of other adventures, especially as you are expected to be running through travel around Ustulav and giving the party random encounters (check out the Bestiary in the back of #2).Even though there are Taldan monks, and Vudrani presence throughout the Inner Sea area? It's fantasy, not historical re-enactment. Also Ustulav is on the travel route from the top of the world to the Eastern nations on the other side.
I banned Gunslinger since by the time firearms became that advanced, plate armor and the like were gone. I am...My game does not take place on Golarion or Europe. Thus your Taldan monks do not exist. It's my game, let me run it MY WAY. If all you came here to do is to tell me to run my games YOUR way, then you can get lost. If you came here to give me advice on useful skills, feats, and classes that I haven't banned, great.
Those random encounters won't be as difficult as regular ones, especially the boss types. Thus, being a woodsy characters doesn't really help.
Uhh you realize that whole, "it doesn't take place in Golarion" thing is some incredibly pertinent information that you failed to mention earlier there man. If you are running this in a setting that isn't Golarion (the assumed setting for the work) and don't tell us it kind of hinders what we can help you with since we have no clue what rules and strictures your world enforces. Also don't know why you are getting so heated about this, you asked for help we are trying to give it you can always just chose to ignore it. If you would like to dispute it though disputing it with ALL CAPS doesn't really help sell the credibility of the point you are trying to make. A better move is to you know, calmly explain your position with well thought out counterpoints like well samurai wouldn't really fit here because we run in a homebrew setting where the Asian inspired countries are far away and don't have much involvement in the greater political and cultural landscape or well I'm aiming to have alchemy be a sort of primal evil, the dark side of science kind of thing with power who's temptations are too great and though an alchemist could be cool I'd worry I'd end up with a Drizz't conundrum where his presence might undermine that theme . Explain your point thoroughly and candidly and you'll be fine and hell you could even go with "I haven't really thought of how the Asian inspired classes fit into my game world so to avoid some of me flailing in the wind over how they fit I'm just keeping them separate for now".
Or you could just accept that some people have 'irrational' dislikes of certain things in their fantasy games - monks, gunslingers, dinosaurs - and you'll never be able to persuade them otherwise.
A couple more notes:
Rogues can sneak attack anything with discernable anatomy. This includes plants, undead and constructs, but not incorporeal undead, elementals or gelatinous cubes.
A Pathfinder druid can usually do fine in an urban or dungeon environment. Only a few of their abilities rely on being outdoors.
Having played all the way through this AP -
1) Very little of this campaign is actually urban focused. Even most of book 2 is spent exploring the countryside, rather than being in Lepidstaht. Most of book 5 is similarly spent in "dungeon" locations rather than Caliphas proper. Combined with all the travel that happens in this game, an urban ranger is going to find his favored community stuff pretty useless. A normal ranger with favored terrains "urban" "forest" and "underground" will probably be better off, though urban ranger does bring some interesting abilities to the table.
2) Yeah, you probably should've mentioned up front that you're playing in a homebrew world. "PCs can't be ____ because it doesn't exist in my world" is perfectly acceptable, but people need to know that before they start wasting their time and yours by giving you Golarion-specific advice. By default, adventure paths are set in Golarion, and we won't know you're not running it there unless you tell us.
3) Alchemist is actually a great fit for the adventure path -- while Count Caromarc is most definitely a mad scientist (my players' alchemist was basically in awe of him), but Vorkstag in book 2 and the lich at Renchurch are the only alchemists I can think of who's actually a villain. The three other major alchemists - Alpon Caromarc (book 2), Horace Croon (book 4), and Ramoska Arkminos (book 5) - are all possible allies. There is quite a bit of mad science going on, especially in book 2, but mad science is fun. Embrace it.
4) The party definitely needs at least one person who's good with social skills, and at least one person who's good at perception and survival. A person who can handle traps is nice but not essential. Eventually, your whole party will want perception, since perception is the key to combating haunts before they fry you. Book 6 has some really brutal haunts in it.
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My game does not take place on Golarion or Europe. Thus your Taldan monks do not exist.
Then why didn't you say so right at the outset? Carrion Crown is set in Ustulav, Ustulav is located in Golarian by default. If it isn't, if you ported it into your homebrew world, that actually changes a lot of base assumptions.
It's my game, let me run it MY WAY. If all you came here to do is to tell me to run my games YOUR way, then you can get lost. If you came here to give me advice on useful skills, feats, and classes that I haven't banned, great.
Yeah, actually you DID ask us to come and tell you how we'd run it. That's what you do when you ask advice on running something, get people to come and tell you how they'd do it. That way you can compare several points of view with your own views and see if they have merit.
Plus, it isn't just your game, it's your players' game as well. What happens if one of them really wants to play, say, a monk? Isn't it easier and more fun for them if you write in how they can do this rather than tell them to go come up with something else? Isn't the whole point for everyone to have fun?
I don't have a problem with you banning stuff you don't feel fits. I just think you should be prepared to be flexible and not try to exert so much influence on what your players want to play. Granted they are newbs, but I would suggest if they are running a few PFS scenarios with pre-gen characters to help them find their feet in the game before embarking on a full-fledged campaign.
Those random encounters won't be as difficult as regular ones, especially the boss types. Thus, being a woodsy characters doesn't really help.
That doesn't make them a liability. You want advice on classes you haven't banned, here's mine: Rangers will do fine in this campaign, as will Druids and Barbarians. There are plenty of wilderness encounters, and lots of wild areas for these characters to be local to. They all have adequate abilities to be helpful out of their element as well.
Yeah, actually you DID ask us to come and tell you how we'd run it. That's what you do when you ask advice on running something, get people to come and tell you how they'd do it. That way you can compare several points of view with your own views and see if they have merit.
No, I didn't: Reread what I wrote in the very first post. I asked for party makeup, feat selections, that sort of thing. NOT how you would run it. Think!
Plus, it isn't just your game, it's your players' game as well. What happens if one of them really wants to play, say, a monk? Isn't it easier and more fun for them if you write in how they can do this rather than tell them to go come up with something else? Isn't the whole point for everyone to have fun?
Too bad, so sad. I have tried being more flexible in the beginning about banning questionable items or not, and it always turns out that players get pissy when they can't get MORE of everything. Thus, I started being more firm immediately, and found that everyone was in a better mood overall. Don't ask me why, I don't know.
The group has limited experience overall. One is a veteran, and doesn't need help, but asks for it anyway when leveling. Two are newbies, and are learning fast. One has a mild bit of experience, but nothing extensive like the veteran.
Personally, I am worried about Barbs in particular in this campaign. As a class, they are -5 AC down compared to a Fighter or Paladin. Since all the major encounters aside from book 3 are urban, I worry that their skills won't really kick in. Same goes for Rangers/Druids, although they have slightly better skills.
I won't ban those three classes, but I will voice my concerns to anyone who seems interested in them.
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And now, you're just not listening. Several people who have run the entire AP have already explained that your assumption that all the major stuff apart from Broken Moon being urban is simply flat-out wrong.
You've admitted you're not familiar with some of the classes you're opposed to, and that's okay. You've made several fundamental errors in your interpretation/knowledge of the rules (incorporeal damage, crits/sneak attacks on undead), and that's okay, too. You neglected to mention that you're running this AP in your own game world after biting the heads off several people for making suggestions based on Ustalav and Golarion. And that's probably okay, too.
But when you're making all these errors and mistakes and forgetting to mention important variables, it strikes me as the absolute height of obnoxious arrogance to then turn around and ignore the very advice you're asking for while demanding that people who did not simply stroke your own ego "drop it" and get out of "your" thread.
Anyway, you can rip away at me and flag me to your heart's content, 'cos I'm done with "your" thread.
Have a nice day...
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Lol I love how you think this is trolling. As for the logic I'm sorry that I could not read your mind, divining this minor detail that you were playing in another setting where apparently your asain cultures are so far away they literally are alien to the other nations at large and not the setting it was written for and assumed to be taking place in. Truly I will try to correct this most egregious error and seek to probe your mind so you might not have to actually explain what you intend to do with your game so we might offer proper advise you claim to desire.
Now back to the topic at hand. As mentioned before only ashes at dawn is really in an urban setting with the rest taking place at best in very secluded rural villages with heavy amounts of natural settings cutting into the ap. Assuming you have done nothing else to change the ap rangers, druids, and barbarians will do fine. Rangers favored enemy spec'd for undead can easily roll most encounters and if they go down a path like sword & board or 2 handed weapon combat style they could easily tank (2 handed, power attack, shield of swings, profit).
Druids fair as well as any other full caster but should not replace a true cleric for this ap. If you are a stickler with handle animal a companion NEEDS to invest in the improved attack command asap otherwise they won't be much help. In spell selection so long as they play smart and prep appropriate spells (cure, little buffs, or some of the surprisingly offensive spells a druid has) they should be cool.
Barbarians again aren't a worry, decent Dex and some good medium armor will help vs the touch attacks and undead pummeling early. Second, Rage actually is incredibly good in CC since it boosts both your Fort and Will saves which becomes incredibly important as you head through the books since most of the really game changing creature abilities are either Fort or Will. All that the player has to do is just be aware of when it is the right time to rage.
In closing ranger & barbarian will do fine and there really isn't any reason to worry about them any more then any other class and can actually do great. Druid is fine and shouldn't be any more of a problem then they are in any other game.
I'm just a little worried that the AC lack Barbarians take for both rage and lack of heavy armor will hose them over when taking a lot of really nasty attacks from undead. They tend to have special effects attached to their moves.
If most of the encounters, not just the random ones, take place in a less than urban setting, then yeah the Druid and Ranger should do okay. At this point I am taking your word for it, having not read through the whole thing, just flicking through and noting encounters.
So far I haven't really cared at all about Handle Animal, but then nobody has yet taken a Druid. There was talk about taking a Ranger over a Fighter for archery, but after much analysis, I told him that Rangers simply weren't as offensively orientated as Fighters, and they had better skills overall (more flexible). He took the Fighter, saying he really wanted to kick butt. Only problem was, his bow had a lot longer range than his darkvision, so he had to blow a feat on upping the latter.
Normally, I encourage my players to invest in armor first, then weaponry. Makes for some frustrating combat since I can never get a good combat roll on them, but it saves their hides frequently.
Really, I think that most Barbs should think about upping their natural armor and taking Dodge if at all possible, because Rage really hoses over AC along with the lack of heavy armor. Maybe adamantine would make a decent breastplate for a Barb. The player that runs Barbarians in my games tends to grab Iron Will right away since he hates losing control of his PC for any reason.
No, there are some here who are trolling incessantly, others mix it in with their more helpful bits, and some just avoid trolling altogether. Not all of it is trolling, in other words.
I will pipe to note that having a good regular AC is a pretty good deal in this AP - aberrations and undeads are both medium BAB progression, which means at the higher levels that they have relatively poor accuracy.
In other words, my fighter and ranger with 35+ 30 ACs waltzed through most of Renchurch, the dungeon that makes up most of book 6, without ever getting hit.
Now, they both got walloped at Gallowspire, but I ramped the hell out of Gallowspire.
While there are number of enemies who target touch AC, they aren't quite that common - book 1 has the Lopper, the Splatter Man, and stirges (and Lady Vesorianna if for some godawful reason your PCs attack her); book 2 has Brother Swarm and his wraithspawn; book 3 has the vilkalkis; book 4 has the color out of space and a pair of spectres; book 5 doesn't have any incorporeal enemies that I can remember; book 6 has spectres, ghosts, and greater shadows.
However, the AP is also front-loaded with enemies that are incorporeal or have damage reduction. So hitting hard and beating that DR matters quite a bit.
Your PCs will probably manage.
Well, Zhangar and Raptor2012, you were very very helpful. I wrote down the creature types, and as usual it's not dishing out damage that's a trouble, it's getting past DR. Thus Ghost Touch, and having one's weapon made of Adamantium is most handy (though deliriously expensive). Had a list of things that could help get past DR, but I forgot it. What a warrior type really wants is to be able to get past DR and actually connect, not amp up damage, so those are the enchantments and feats to take (Outflank etc). And here I am told by this forum that Dodge & Mobility is useless for warrior types, ha!
Did NOT know about the SR, but I don't know what more a spellcaster can do other than take the two spell penetration feats and be an elf. Gonna recommend an Elf Wizard, there's just too many knowledges needed by this campaign to ignore.
Well, in any undead or evil outsider campaign, Paladins rock, period. So do Clerics. Ideally, we'd like to see a Paladin and Cleric in the same party, what else? Dirge Bard? Wizard?
Aside from the knowledges and possibly use magic device, what suggestions are there for necessary skills? Apparently there aren't many traps, but the ones there are nasty. Will state that to my party.
PS
Didn't know how to respond to trolling. Normally am used to fighting my own battles.
No, I didn't: Reread what I wrote in the very first post. I asked for party makeup, feat selections, that sort of thing. NOT how you would run it. Think!
Yeah, actually you DID ask us to come and tell you how we'd run it. That's what you do when you ask advice on running something, get people to come and tell you how they'd do it. That way you can compare several points of view with your own views and see if they have merit.
I did, and I said I thought you didn't need to ban those classes (given the assumptions of the adventure path), and that the wilderness classes would do just fine. You have interpreted this as telling you how to run the game, but I can't help that - it was in answer to the question you posed.
Plus, it isn't just your game, it's your players' game as well. What happens if one of them really wants to play, say, a monk? Isn't it easier and more fun for them if you write in how they can do this rather than tell them to go come up with something else? Isn't the whole point for everyone to have fun?Too bad, so sad. I have tried being more flexible in the beginning about banning questionable items or not, and it always turns out that players get pissy when they can't get MORE of everything. Thus, I started being more firm immediately, and found that everyone was in a better mood overall. Don't ask me why, I don't know.
Items are not classes, though. Still with a new group cutting down the options available is probably good as they will not get overwhelmed that way - hence my suggestion that you run a few scenarios with pre-gen characters to familiarise them with the game basics.
Later, they will want to branch out. Taking the "too bad" attitude then could annoy them if you don't let them spread their wings.
The group has limited experience overall. One is a veteran, and doesn't need help, but asks for it anyway when leveling. Two are newbies, and are learning fast. One has a mild bit of experience, but nothing extensive like the veteran.
Forgive me, but you aren't in perfect cognizance of either the rules or the adventure yourself it would seem. That's why you are asking advice, is it not? Nothing wrong with that, but to ask and then reject everything you are told is a bit daft. Plus, I can see from the rest of the post you haven't been reading the advice you are given if it disagrees with what you already believe.
Personally, I am worried about Barbs in particular in this campaign. As a class, they are -5 AC down compared to a Fighter or Paladin.
Generally this is not so. Maybe -2 or -3 behind, depending on the rage powers you take, plus they get DR. Barbarians are tougher than you think.
Since all the major encounters aside from book 3 are urban...
No, they are not. Only Adventure #5 is anything like heavily urban. There IS a lot of investigation, though. Rangers are GOOD at investigation.
... I worry that their skills won't really kick in. Same goes for Rangers/Druids, although they have slightly better skills.
I won't ban those three classes, but I will voice my concerns...
...completely unfounded concerns, I have to add...
...to anyone who seems interested in them.
Try going back and reading what people have already told you about the adventure, and you will see that the only thing you need to worry about is making sure that the characters, whatever classes they take, need a few investigative skills.
That's it.
I did, and I said I thought you didn't need to ban those classes (given the assumptions of the adventure path), and that the wilderness classes would do just fine. You have interpreted this as telling you how to run the game, but I can't help that - it was in answer to the question you posed.Items are not classes, though. Still with a new group cutting down the options available is probably good as they will not get overwhelmed that way - hence my suggestion that you run a few scenarios with pre-gen characters to familiarise them with the game basics.
Later, they will want to branch out. Taking the "too bad" attitude then could annoy them if you don't let them spread their wings.
Forgive me, but you aren't in perfect cognizance of either the rules or the adventure yourself it would seem. That's why you are asking advice, is it not? Nothing wrong with that, but to ask and then reject everything you are told is a bit daft. Plus, I can see from the rest of the post you haven't been reading the advice you are given if it disagrees with what you already believe.
Generally this is not so. Maybe -2 or -3 behind, depending on the rage powers you take, plus they get DR. Barbarians are tougher than you think.
No, they are not. Only Adventure #5 is anything like heavily urban. There IS a lot of investigation, though. Rangers are GOOD at investigation.
Piccolo wrote:
...to anyone who seems interested in them.
Try going back and reading what people have already told you about the adventure, and you will see that the only thing you need to worry about is making sure that the characters, whatever classes they take, need a few investigative skills.
Reread the initial post I made on this thread, since I am the OP. Those goals are precisely what I have. You, however, are insisting that I should change the premise. That is telling me how to run my own game.
It wasn't items. It was questioning how I made my decisions, and calling me unfair (this was a now defunct group, and everyone in it now thinks the objector was out to lunch) when I did the best I could to make the game exciting for him in particular. Ended up being far too wishy washy, and he and his best friend were never happy, no matter what I gave them.
My current group is now a bit overwhelmed with the sheer number of choices I throw at them when they level up anyway. I like to play devil's advocate and give them options. Since the game automatically opens up as they get higher in level, I doubt they will want to "branch out" as you suggest.
I reject ONLY the fact that you are routinely asking me to play differently than I stated was the case in my initial post. Ain't gonna.
Naw, if you think about it, Barbs are at LEAST 5 points of AC behind. Rage takes off 2, and lack of Full Plate takes off another 3. Plus they get pounded on a lot since they seem to be obsessed with charging into the fray.
I was told that the adventure encounters, with the exception of the random ones, were almost entirely urban (towns, city, dungeon etc).
I am not worried about essentials, what I wanted was not just the essentials but also how to get the most bang out of the adventure path (this is in the original post, reread it). So far, I am told that Paladins and Clerics will have a field day, and those with lots of Knowledges will have a blast, like Wizards. Use Magic Device is apparently gonna be fun, and investigative/negotiator skills are necessary.
Your paladin becomes win/win on the DR penetration front as their smite ability bypasses any and all X/Y type damage reduction (against an evil target). Early on in the campaign (in book one), there is little opportunity to gear up with significant anti-DR gear (as Ravengro is just a small town). That quickly changes once the party gets to Liepstadt in the early part of the second book. Investing in some weapon blanches, silver or mithril silver weapons will serve them very, very well. An adamantine weapon blanch is very handy (although it is only one use RAW, I personally have house-ruled a % chance to wear off to make the use of them more appealing in my campaigns). EDIT- I forgot that you weren't using Golarion as a base setting, sorry, the anti-DR items may be more prevalent in your starter town, so that may not be an issue.
Strongly suggest that your Cleric is a cleric of Pharasma. In book 4, they potentially get a really, really cool item.
Perception is a great skill (as always) to invest in. Due to the investigative nature of the game, Linguistics is handy. Heal, Spellcraft, Diplomacy and Bluff added to the Knowledge skills are the most useful skills in the game, bar none. Stealth is useful if you have a couple of characters invested in it so they can run around together. Your players do NOT want to get isolated in this game (YOU want them to for story purposes but that's a totally different conversation) so if someone wants to go the stealth route, they should make sure they have a battle buddy.
If you don't mind my asking, how many players do you have? That does make a difference in party composition (in my opinion). If you've got four, I would suggest Paladin, Cleric, Wizard and either Dirge Bard, Detective Bard or Inquisitor. That's a really solid group with decent hp, especially if the Wizard invests in the Toughness feat (and if they are an elf they get the added benefit of staying the heck out of combat with their handy bow).
Hope this helps more. Sounds like you're...
Pharasma? I'm not using any of their deities. Is the item keyed to domains or something?
4, maybe 5 players, depending on who is interested.
Yeah, normally the scout can sneak, so I will recommend the warrior type does as well (probably paladin in this case).
Why is adamantine such a massively expensive weapon material? It's not that great!
What I would like to know are things like what sort of feats should PC's take, what class mix we should have, etc, to get the most out of Carrion Crown.
If you'd like some examples, you could always pick up something we produced at Legendary Games as an adventure path plug-in for Carrion Crown, which we called Gothic Heroes. They're basically eight different pregenerated 1st level characters complete with stats, feats, advancement notes, roleplay suggestions, lots of background hooks for how to solidly integrate them into the campaign's storyline, and a good mix of hand-selected classes which should work well with one another over the course of the campaign. Even if you don't wind up using the characters, they could certainly give you and your players some decent ideas to tweak or build upon.
EDIT: Oops. I see Daronil already recommended that product. And, it does obviously include a couple of character classes (summoner and alchemist), which you've chosen to ban. Even so, they should provide some decent examples of how those classes actually can still work in the Carrion Crown campaign (and to great thematic effect). But it's your game. Run it however you want. Likewise, disregard or choose from these suggestions as you wish.
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I'm just a little worried that the AC lack Barbarians take for both rage and lack of heavy armor will hose them over when taking a lot of really nasty attacks from undead. They tend to have special effects attached to their moves.
I think you overestimate AC. It helps early but drops like rock at higher levels. Half my players have heavy armor and I hit them almost every round. We are level 12 and in book 5 of the AP. Don't discard the Barbs offensive ability and extra HPs from raging. Also uncanny dodge can be super helpful against sneaky undead types.
attacking weapons and armor in Pathfinder is akin to attacking someone's mount in real life, too damned expensive. Players want to SELL their opponents gear, not destroy it! Haven't yet found players willing to sunder like that deliberately.
Closest deity I know of to Pharasma is either Kelemvor or Lathander of Faerun. But no fate destiny or knowledge portfolios.
Doesn't AC continue to rise while the players up their level to the double digits? I mean, there are such things as +5 Full Plate and +5 Heavy mithral shields running around on PC and NPC's.
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Doesn't AC continue to rise while the players up their level to the double digits? I mean, there are such things as +5 Full Plate and +5 Heavy mithral shields running around on PC and NPC's.
Doesnt matter the enemies to hit just keeps going up. This phenom is often called the progress treadmill.
Might just be play style I guess but my players put way more stock in magic defense than AC. Blur, invis, mirror image, elemental resistance, etc etc. They focus their feats on offense.
Personally, I am worried about Barbs in particular in this campaign. As a class, they are -5 AC down compared to a Fighter or Paladin. Since all the major encounters aside from book 3 are urban, I worry that their skills won't really kick in. Same goes for Rangers/Druids, although they have slightly better skills.
I'd guess that a barb would fare better than a fighter. He doesn't have to rage all the time and if he doesn't he most likely has a higher touch AC than the man in plate.
If his skills help depends on what he spends them in. But even if he learns some useless skills he still hasn't less than the fighter.There is even one rage power that lets you ignore negative levels and similar afflictions gives you an additional save to "heal" them.
The ranger can be quite good in CC is he chooses the right favored enemies. No matter what terrain he's in. And some archetypes get rid of favored terrain, so if you're not sure about which to choose, just exchange it.
Druids can be cool wherever they are. Just don't specialize too much in special spells that don't work everywhere too much. (I think entangle needs plants or roots for example).
I myself are playing a stonelord paladin and despite the earth servant being nearly useless it's a fun archetype. And the stonestrike he gets instead of smite evil already came in very handy.
Well, one of my players agreed to make a new PC. Made a Undead Scourge Paladin. I adapted the Angelkin trait so that he gets past undead's DR3 on a critical hit. He's using a greataxe, and took weapon focus. Rolled above average wealth, and bought chainmail and a healer's kit. His PC is "from" that area where the adventure starts, so I figured he could get away with not buying much.
Also tried a trick I used once before. Wisdom in Flesh (Stealth). Gets around armor check penalty to Stealth.
Reread the initial post I made on this thread, since I am the OP. Those goals are precisely what I have. You, however, are insisting that I should change the premise. That is telling me how to run my own game.
What I would like to know are things like what sort of feats should PC's take, what class mix we should have, etc, to get the most out of Carrion Crown.
Says class mix right there. I took that to mean what classes are a good idea to play or not to play. For example, monk actually does pretty well in the early scenarios, so naturally I would query why you would ban it as you are asking about a good class mix.
That's all I did, query. Sorry if you felt I overstepped the mark.
It wasn't items. It was questioning how I made my decisions, and calling me unfair (this was a now defunct group, and everyone in it now thinks the objector was out to lunch) when I did the best I could to make the game exciting for him in particular. Ended up being far too wishy washy, and he and his best friend were never happy, no matter what I gave them.
I can only read what you write, not what you are thinking. You said:
I have tried being more flexible in the beginning about banning questionable items or not
...I though t you meant "items in the game" not "items of the game".
That said, it sounds like you had a problem player, not a problem DMing style. Now that the former has gone I don't think you need to worry about the latter. On the flip side, if your players are happy that way, then I see no issues ATM.
My current group is now a bit overwhelmed with the sheer number of choices I throw at them when they level up anyway. I like to play devil's advocate and give them options. Since the game automatically opens up as they get higher in level, I doubt they will want to "branch out" as you suggest.
I get this a lot, as many of my players are new to the game or unfamiliar with it at best. My answer to this was to leave it for them to explore, but when they are stuck ask them what they want to achieve and recommend how best they can do this. As I run all the characters on my copy of HeroLab anyway, it keeps things simple for them and me, and everyone is happy.
I reject ONLY the fact that you are routinely asking me to play differently than I stated was the case in my initial post. Ain't gonna.
I was not aware you were modifying the adventure for your home-brew setting, and I wouldn't like to hear that your campaign was less fun than it might have been for all involved because of something I could have pointed out to you at the outset and didn't, so I pointed out what I felt were potential pitfalls in your initial premise. You've heard 'em, I've said 'em, no need to discuss further.
Naw, if you think about it, Barbs are at LEAST 5 points of AC behind. Rage takes off 2, and lack of Full Plate takes off another 3. Plus they get pounded on a lot since they seem to be obsessed with charging into the fray.
Beast totem rage powers give access to pounce, natural armour (that stacks with an amulet of natural armour), and many other goodies. Effectively the barbarian gains up to +6 AC that way (putting them one ahead in your calculations), and still has DR and d12 hit dice. Plus they do not have to be played as raging psychopaths.
I was told that the adventure encounters, with the exception of the random ones, were almost entirely urban (towns, city, dungeon etc).
Only if you count "dungeon" as "urban", which it strictly speaking isn't (and it's available as a favoured terrain for rangers seperately to urban). Many encounters are for wilderness travel, and in fact one module is entirely wilderness-based. I would say that the party WILL need someone wilderness-savvy among them, even if it's just a decent Survival skill to follow tracks and avoid getting lost.
I am not worried about essentials, what I wanted was not just the essentials but also how to get the most bang out of the adventure path (this is in the original post, reread it). So far, I am told that Paladins and Clerics will have a field day, and those with lots of Knowledges will have a blast, like Wizards. Use Magic Device is apparently gonna be fun, and investigative/negotiator skills are necessary.
You got that bang on. Wilderness characters will not lack something to do, either. This is the kind of adventure where a bard (knowledges, skills) and a ranger (scouting, wilderness-base) would be great additions to a party...
For the record, random encounters my players have had through Chapter #2:
An orc raid, that turned into a search-and-rescue mission, and practically a mini-scenario on it's own. I liked one NPC half-orc so much I'm making her a recurring villain.
A wyvern, that nearly ate one wizard and was felled by the party monk "the man who kills dragons with his bare hands." This was the toughest single encounter, CR6 at level 4.
A shambling mound (both parties).
A cluster of assassin vines (both parties).
An owlbear (both parties).
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Well, one of my players agreed to make a new PC. Made a Undead Scourge Paladin. I adapted the Angelkin trait so that he gets past undead's DR3 on a critical hit. He's using a greataxe, and took weapon focus. Rolled above average wealth, and bought chainmail and a healer's kit. His PC is "from" that area where the adventure starts, so I figured he could get away with not buying much.
Also tried a trick I used once before. Wisdom in Flesh (Stealth). Gets around armor check penalty to Stealth.
Smite evil ignores all dr a target has so long as he's actually evil (so all undead as far as much of this book will be concerned). On top of this he will do double his normal smite damage on the first hit to any undead, evil outsider, evil dragon, or evil aberration. Trust me, be prepared as an undead scourge pally here can literally just demolish everything in this ap. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing but
1.) Don't be let his very good abilities shock you the first time out2.) Make sure to build around it so that your other players get to shine in combat or other areas as the pally can quickly steal the show in combat.
wait, did you read undead scourge? You give up evil outsider and evil dragon to smite undead.
dungeons definitely count as urban, as they are anything BUT natural environments.
So far, I am thinking that the class mix is going to end up Paladin, Cleric (restoration, heroism), Wizard (shadowcaster, Evoker), and a skill monkey of some sort, like Rogue, Ranger, Inquisitor, or Bard.
dungeons definitely count as urban, as they are anything BUT natural environments.
I'ma have to step in here and say you are factually incorrect.
Underground (caves and dungeons)
Urban (buildings, streets, and sewers)
Unless you planned on just abolishing the Underground option as a valid choice for FT.
Now yeah, there's a bit of wibbly wobbly in whether that means a dungeon (as in literally the area with the cells, i.e. the lower levels of Harrowstone) or a DUNGEON (the colloquial for any sort of extensive hostile area that takes place mostly inside), but it's simpler to go with the second.
If you're going with the first maybe lower levels = Underground and upper = Urban but you still really shouldn't steer your Ranger toward Urban as it will be largely useless throughout the APs as a whole.
Ayup. But it doesn't apply to aberrations, constructs, humanoid (shapechangers). All 3 appear in the campaign, not counting regular old people.
Well, the first game went REALLY well. They not only got ALL of the Knowledge checks done, they found the hidden cache of gear without losing any Trust, have a 21 Trust from talking away the peasant mob, nailed Gibs WITHOUT killing him (which may be worth more points, haven't checked yet), and generally kicked butt whilst only spending 10gp total. 800xp shy of leveling.
I turned Pharasma into Kelemvor, and made the Cleric and Paladin both of that deity, seeing as how they are both rabidly anti undead. If I can find a way to make the future Wizard or Rogue/skill monkey more capable of nailing the other creature types... Didn't fight any undead yet, just some giant centipedes and one possessed human.
Am a little concerned so far that this campaign is going to be literally too easy for the party as a whole so far. No real challenges yet, as they only sucked up half a month with the Knowledge checks.
Unfortunately, Gibs got up to VESOR before the guys caught him. IANNA isn't that far away, given that it will keep happening. I can't have the events happen much faster, since the guys spent their time just doing research in the Temple, NOT at any other location.
Not sure the variable timing is something I like. I realize it's to add pressure, but I would rather have a fixed time limit.
I have to say I am annoyed at the Trust mechanic of losing one per day. This results in the PC's not being able to have time enough to research as the adventure wants you to, AND explore Harrowstone simultaneously! It's enough that the VESORIANNA mechanic encourages speed, but to penalize the PC's with Trust is abominable. The tasks themselves are easy enough, but with a constant drain on Trust, and precious few ways to earn it, it simply sets the PC's up to have a drain on money, reputation etc constantly, just barely riding their few public successes.
Basically, no matter how well you do in building Trust, it doesn't matter, you are screwed anyway, there's no way to build it up.
On a different topic, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't enchanted arrows single use items?
I have to say I am annoyed at the Trust mechanic of losing one per day. This results in the PC's not being able to have time enough to research as the adventure wants you to, AND explore Harrowstone simultaneously! It's enough that the VESORIANNA mechanic encourages speed, but to penalize the PC's with Trust is abominable. The tasks themselves are easy enough, but with a constant drain on Trust, and precious few ways to earn it, it simply sets the PC's up to have a drain on money, reputation etc constantly, just barely riding their few public successes.
Basically, no matter how well you do in building Trust, it doesn't matter, you are screwed anyway, there's no way to build it up.
Both my parties had no problem on this. Every time They did anything to benefit the town they gained trust, and there were plenty of things to do, like patrolling the town/restlands for zombies at night. They would go to Harrowstone every morning, explore a few hours until they ran low on spells, then return to Ravengro for generally helping out. When doing research they split up and got it all done very quickly right at the start (cleric to the temple, wizard in the Professor's library, etc), and it sounds like your party have got all the info they need too.
On a different topic, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't enchanted arrows single use items?
Yep. That's OK though, by the time they run low they should be high enough level to have taken the spells and abilities that will help, and have discovered the items that will help them further. If they choose not to, that's their problem.
I have to say I am annoyed at the Trust mechanic of losing one per day. This results in the PC's not being able to have time enough to research as the adventure wants you to, AND explore Harrowstone simultaneously! It's enough that the VESORIANNA mechanic encourages speed, but to penalize the PC's with Trust is abominable. The tasks themselves are easy enough, but with a constant drain on Trust, and precious few ways to earn it, it simply sets the PC's up to have a drain on money, reputation etc constantly, just barely riding their few public successes.
Basically, no matter how well you do in building Trust, it doesn't matter, you are screwed anyway, there's no way to build it up.
On a different topic, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't enchanted arrows single use items?
1) Enchanted arrows are expended on a successful hit when fired. They're not necessarily destroyed when used as improvised melee weapons. They're horribly inaccurate because they are being used as improvised melee weapons, of course. -4 to hit, for 1d4 damage.
2) The trust mechanic has some issues, which have been acknowledged by Rob McCreary in other posts on this board. You should run a search for Trust on this board, as well as check the DM Reference thread. Anyways, the simple solution to trust is up trust awards and to allow positive interaction between the PCs and the town to raise trust.
For example, in my game the party's ranger has Profession (Cook) and he volunteered his help at the inn/tavern. He made a good cooking check and impressed the innkeeper, winning him over.
Also, the PCs can gain a HUGE amount of trust at the town hall fire if you simply award 1 point for every townsfolk they save.
Lastly, your PCs are moving slowly if Gibs made it to five letters before getting caught - that's over a week, isn't it?
Edit: I did drop probably-not-subtle hints to the party that the current situation was burning out the townsfolk (I also handed out pieces of papers with written out nightmares to the PCs, with the implication the entire town was having dreams like that), and that the longer they waited the worse it would get. I'd have to check my notes, but I think they completed the entire adventure in four days of game time.
3) Favored terrain (Urban) in of itself will be fairly useful, and should be taken around level 7 or 11. In my own game I allowed pretty much any fortified structure that I deemed hostile territory to count as a dungeon - Harrowstone, Schloss Caromarc, the Abbey in book 5, Renchurch, etc. Feldgrau (a ruined town) is urban ; if the party gets into a fight in Illmarsh that'll be urban; the Caliphas sewers and Radivir's store are urban. Adarak is odd; I treated the outer city as urban and Gallowspire itself as a dungeon.
all i know is, i am avoiding certain posters like the Plague. I am so tired of arguing and generally not having fun. This is why I report those who try to pick fights, but it's hard not to respond and defend myself. Even so, I do my level best to remain civil.
Actually, they were moving rather quickly, given the number of successes they had in doing research. Basically, they dedicated the Paladin, Cleric, Wizard and finally the Rogue to research. Soon as they finished, they immediately went after Gibs and the hidden stash. They made every Diplomacy check as if they were nothing. Beat the tar out of the centipedes and Gibs, even convinced the peasant mob to back off while they were pallbearers.
They even figured out who Vesorianna was, and what the Splatter Man was trying to pull. They have a pretty good idea who the 5 prisoners are, including names and back history. It's as if they got a grand Plot Exposition handed to them on a silver platter; nice die rolls!
Just 500xp shy of leveling, thanks to all that. And I intend to put them through the other events, roughly in order. Problem is, I rolled minimum on the letters many times, so the bad guys got a head start. Gonna even that out by maxing out the d4 results so that new letters show up every 6 days, and Splatter will be forced to start all over since Gibs got captured and the PC's erased his letters.
Only thing is, they haven't had much chance to interact with most of the townsfolk outside the Temple and their hostess in town. Any suggestions? I plan on having 60 people total at the town hall fire, not counting the PC's hopefully party crashing the place.
That's a pretty liberal definition of dungeon. Now that I think of it, the concept of a dungeon really is pretty ill defined. I mean, do caverns, castles as a whole, etc count? Urban I always thought of as being any structure that's man made, a lot of them all together or a large area that the PC's are in that's artificial. Or does it have to be a city?
Frankly, I don't see any harm in allowing some overlap between urban and underground when dealing with man-made structures with significant subterranean sections.
60 people in the town hall is going to be really, really crowded. Like, you're going to lose a lot of people in the fire crowded. I think I did 20 to 24 or so (1 person per bench spot, and then the town counsel), with some of the townsfolk actually being able to help fight the fire (like the L2 ranger sheriff or the council member that's a L1 cavalier). It's been over a year since I ran it (I started my campaign back in December 2011), so my number may be off.
The party is sitting at some miserably low trust number already, you might want them to have to defend the town against a zombie attack or something. I'd also suggest looking through the Ravengro town entry and seeing if any of the NPCs grab your attention, or at least provide enoguh to grab a player's attention. I have no idea what your players will take interest in.
Only thing is, they haven't had much chance to interact with most of the townsfolk outside the Temple and their hostess in town. Any suggestions? I plan on having 60 people total at the town hall fire, not counting the PC's hopefully party crashing the place.
There's a list of in-town encounters they can use to interact with the locals (skipping song, stirges flapping around the musicians, zombies appearing at night, etc.), plus they could go for a meal in the Laughing Demon and such, or talk to the town sheriff about Gibs...in some ways it's up to their imaginations and yours to dream up ways of interacting. It's a case of: "OK, you are in town for the evening, what do you do? What do you think you would do, were you a likeable rogue with free time and spending silver in a moderately sized town? Hint: the tavern is thataway..."
Since I currently only have 2 players and 2 NPC's (generic Rogue and Wizard respectively), I figure one of them could direct the townsfolk, and another could just fight fires. That leaves the players (Cleric and Paladin) to either fight the skulls or save townsfolk. You gain and lose Trust at the same rate, so I figured they'd come out ahead, especially since all the attendees will be moving at 6 squares per round.
Currently, with me negating the daily loss of points, they have 23 Trust. Managed NOT to kill Gibs, or drop the casket. Gibs is now imprisoned or will be when the game starts up again, so Splatter has to find a new person to possess. And while this isn't specifically stated in the game, I figure having him start over from scratch seeing as how he had to find a new weak willed sort and the townsfolk have probably erased the letters (or the PC's, shortly) is reasonable.
I looked at those in-town Events, and there's not enough Trust points available. The only other way to build trust that I have seen is the town hall fire. I also looked at the town description, and nothing was listed as a means of building Trust.