| Chawmaster |
Is there a clear Pathfinder rule to the following question:
If a PC fails a save versus an enchantment spell, is he aware that he is under the affect of the spell?
My gut reaction to the question is "No, of course not! That would almost defeat the point of the spell!" Yet, I can't seem to find validation for my gut.
The question came up when I looked at the APG spell, Cleanse. Cleanse has a range of 'personal' and one of its effects is that it cures the confused condition. Would anyone in the confused condition use the spell? I would think not because I don't think they would know they were confused. But some might make the case that a PC is not confused on a round in which they can 'act normally', so they would cast the spell at that time. That doesn't seem right to me.
So, there's my short question made long...
Thanks for any help.
| mplindustries |
You would not know you were Charmed or had some other subtle enchantment cast upon you, but you'd definitely know you were confused--you're rolling to see how you act on a given turn. How could you not be aware of that? And obviously, it would be done on an "act normally" round, otherwise, you'd be too busy doing something else to cast a spell.
| DM_Blake |
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule for this.
It's worth noting that if he makes his save, he knows something happened, some magic brushed through his brain but failed to take effect. That's in the book. But that might be moot to the real question.
Obviously most "Enchantment" spells cannot succeed if the person knows he's under an enchantment. For example, if you cast Charm Person on a store owner to make him see you as a good friend so he will give you a significant discount, there's only two ways to rule it: A) he has no idea this happened, gives you your discount, and never worries about it or B) he knows you're messing with his mind but is compelled to give you your discount, but the instant the spell wears off he runs to the authorities to report that you're a thieving magical criminal and now you're wanted by the law - better never go back to that town.
Using option B would make Charm Person almost useless, since it has extremely limited combat use. And the same can be said about many similar Enchantment spells.
It's important to note that these spells don't generally alter memories (except the ones that explicitly state that they do), so days, weeks, years after you get that discount, the store owner will remember giving you the discount. He may wonder why he was so fond of you, but that is handwaivable - I assume the spell provides for a "long lost childhood friend" feeling and might even fill in a few hazy background details, just enough to not turn the guy into an enemy when the spell ends.
As for Confusion, I agree with you that while you're unable to act normally, you may not know that you're confused. After the spell ends, you will certainly remember that you were confused. During the Confusion, when your head is clear, you still remember that you were confused in previous rounds but you really have no easy way to know if the spell is still in effect - did the duration run out or did you just have a lucky moment/round of clarity while the spell is still affecting you?
I would model this by not telling the player "Hey, you're confused for 7 rounds". Rather, just have him make his roll and describe his actions - definitely don't tell him the duration. If he asks why, maybe tell him "I don't know why you did that, you seem really confused" and leave it at that. If next round he gets his head clear, the player will have to guess whether the spell expired or not. He might try to dispel it or Cleanse it, or he might hope the spell is over and therefore he'll save his cure.
So, there's my long answer made longer...
| DM_Blake |
I probably wouldn't even require the roll.
In his moment of clarity, the victim can clearly remember the last round, or last however many rounds, of being confused. That's probably enough right there for him to realize a Confusion spell was cast on him, even if he might not know the exact spell or the source/caster of it.
The roll would be Knowledge(Arcana) if the victim wanted to be sure. "Identify a spell that just targeted you" has a DC 25 + the spell level of the Confusion effect. A free action, but one he probably wouldn't even think about using while he was confused. I still don't think he could determine the exact duration because the duration is variable based on the level of the caster, but a clever caster could figure out that the shortest duration would be 7 rounds and if his moment of clarity happened before the 7th round, he could assume the Confusion was still in effect.
| Anguish |
I think in general a person always knows when they've had to make a save. They know if they've succeeded or failed. That said, they may or may not know what required the save.
Here's an interesting one... someone casts an illusion. You see them cast it. You succeed at a Spellcraft check so you KNOW what has been cast. Then you roll a natural 1 on your save. You fail. You KNOW you failed. You know WHAT you failed at.
TOO BAD.
You believe the illusion. That's when your mind starts making excuses. That's when you have to role-play a character who is in a magically altered state. No metagaming. Your hands are tied.
I find charms and enchantments much the same. You may or may not know what's been done, but you may not CARE. Unless you get an "act normally" round, the point is moot. You're charmed and the caster had a GREAT reason for doing it. No reason to struggle.
So I disagree with DM_Blake's choice. Charm spells have great utility event if the charmed may come out of it upset. Charm a guard, get him to take you to the king, explain to the king how you couldn't get audience normally and are present to do X, where X is something really useful to him. Guard comes out of it, guard is angry, king tells guard to take the night off.
| Chawmaster |
Sorry it took so long to get back... work... gets... in... way...
Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate the feedback.
It seems that we are all in agreement that there is no clear rule on this one way or another, so it's up to us DMs to decide. Fair enough.
I think what's influencing my thinking the most (insert enchantment spell joke here) is the fact that if the subject of the spell fails his Will save he is under the affect of a Compulsion for its duration. To me, this means that he is not aware that he is being forced to take his particular actions each round; his mind has been defeated for the duration of the Compulsion. Even on a round in which he is to "act normally", he is still be compelled to do so and, therefore, not truly acting normally (the spell hasn't ended; he is still Compulsed).
I looked back at the spell description, which says this: "This spell causes confusion in the targets, making them unable to determine their actions."
And, under the confused condition, it says this:
"A confused creature is mentally befuddled and cannot act normally."
This seems to imply that the creature is essentially blissfully ignorant and will act normally, without knowledge he is Confused. Acting normally might consist of continuing to fight his enemies or heal an ally (even one he just injured).
The two views from DM Blake and Anguish about the memory ramifications is an interesting one. I would probably rule that unless the subject of the spell knew that he was the subject of that particular charm person, he wouldn't be angry about something he was never aware of. So, if the storekeeper was a wizard, was able to observe the spellcaster, and made a successful Spellcraft check (and then failed his save), then when the charm person wore off, he would remember that a charm person had been cast and probably have a clear opinion on the matter. Or, if the storekeeper's wizard friend observed the event and made a successful Knowledge Arcana check, he could tell his friend after the spell wore off that he had been charmed. But if the victim was a lone, nonspellcasting merchant, he would probably not know what had happened.
If you were a player in my campaign, how unreasonable would my logic sound to you?