I'm putting together a character that will eventually become a Rage Prophet. Which has led to some questions regarding advancing one.
Obviously, the two levels of Barbarian will only count for 1/2 each toward the Oracle's curse. I'm 90% sure that the Rage Prophet levels also only count 1/2 each, but not 100%.
On levels where the Rage Prophet advances spellcasting, it gives spells known. Does that include mystery bonus spells?
Can I take the Extra Revelations feat at 11th level to get a "You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation" revelation? If not, do I have to get to Oracle 4 / RP 10 (which has 11 levels of casting)? Or can I just not take it at all?
Likewise, can I take Extra Rage Power for any Rage Powers that require a level higher than 2 at any point?
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bonus spells are a class feature from oracles, does the rage prophet say you get them? (answer is no)
Your barbarian lvl and prophet levels stack, but as for rage powers, not sure, but I'd go no. Any powers will scale as if you were a prophet + barbarian, but you still aren't a lvl 11 barbarian etc.
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also
Rage Prophet Mystery: At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle's mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide. The rage prophet treats the spell as an oracle spell of the listed level. The possible spells are arcane eye (4th), augury (2nd), divination (4th), dream (5th), find the path (6th), helping hand (3rd), see invisibility (2nd), shadow walk (6th), speak with dead (3rd), spectral hand (2nd), spiritual weapon (2nd), unseen servant (1st), vision (7th), and whispering wind (2nd).
why on earth would you think you get bonus mystery spells on top of these free known ones!?
why on earth would you think you get bonus mystery spells on top of these free known ones!?
Damn. Sorry for asking a question dude. I don't think I do. I don't know if I do or not, for the reason I stated: prestige classes that advance casting all indicate that they add spells known for spontaneous casters. Rage Prophet isn't the only casting-advancing prestige class, it's just the one I happen to be looking at, I hadn't even noticed that it has bonus spells of it's own, and it's a question I didn't see an answer to anywhere so I figured I'd ask a question in a forum meant for asking questions. It'd hardly be the first time that I found out that the way the rules actually work is more permissive than how I assumed they work.
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Savage Seer: A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
And also
it's just the one I happen to be looking at... I hadn't even noticed that it has bonus spells of it's own
So you didn't read the class features and just started asking questions? no wonder you're confused about it.
Savage Seer: A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
Well at least that's the first question answered.
So you didn't read the class features and just started asking questions? no wonder you're confused about it.
I read the Spells per Day section to try and find an answer to my second question. It didn't address my question. Because it's exactly the same text as every Prestige Class that grants Spells per Day. None of these questions were necessarily specific to Rage Prophet; I'd have the same questions for any spells per day advancing prestige class being combined with Oracle, or with any prestige class at all being combined with Barbarian.
So, does anyone who isn't going to berate me for not already knowing the answers to my questions want to help me out with the other three?
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When you multi-class into something like say Eldritch knight and you're a sorcerer, does it progress your bloodline abilities?
The answer is no, because all it does is progress your spell casting ability and spells known. It doesn't grant any specific class features unless it says so.
The reason it didn't answer your question is because it didn't need to. It didn't say it granted it, so it doesn't grant it. The lack of it stating doesn't mean it does something.
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So let me answer your other questions then
If you're a 16 character, you have 6 levels in oracle, 2 in barbarian, and 8 in rage prophet. What level oracle are you? The answer is not 16, nor is it 14.
I think you can extrapolate what lvl barbarian you are.
To further show you how the designers think when they write, let me show you the prestige class entry for master chymist in regards to picking higher lvl discoveries for mutagens of the alchemist.
Grand Mutagen (Ex): This mutagen is identical to the alchemist discovery of the same name and counts as that discovery for the purpose of qualifying for other discoveries or advanced mutagens. The character must have an effective alchemist level (alchemist level plus master chymist levels) of at least 16 and must have the feral mutagen discovery or advanced mutagen to select this ability.
Notice how it grants a power the alchemist class does and with the same requirements (lvl 16 alchemist) but in this case it provides specific text to combine the two.
Without such txt, you're stuck with whatever rage powers are available to a barbarian of lvl 2 in this example.
So, after trimming off all the "I'm a massive %&@;#?% and fell the need to spend 90% of my comment abusing someone for wanting a clear answer to something" attitude, that's a "Rage Prophet counts full value for the curse (and revelations)" and three "no"s. Thanks oh so much for imparting your wisdom on my lowly self. I shall cease bothering you with my foolish prattle.
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well it's all stuff written there.
You've even admitted that you just simply didn't read it. The best way to answer questions it by providing the sources for the answer. Since you have access to these sources you should be looking for the answer first and thoroughly before posting questions. If you don't you should at least let people know you aren't putting the effort and want answers spoon fed to you.
I could easily post a question here asking if Rogues all get fancy hats with feathers as part of their class. I could view it as a valid question because when I do a search nothing comes up and there's nothing said in there about them getting it....
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As long as we're pointing out things that people should be reading before posting here:
We'd like to foster a positive, friendly community here at paizo.com, so please be polite in your postings.
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So asking someone why on earth they would think a certain feature would be given ontop an feature similar (bonus spells) is impolite? my bad I didn't realize people had such thin skins.
Tone is difficult to convey on the internet. All of the following:
bonus spells are a class feature from oracles, does the rage prophet say you get them? (answer is no)
why on earth would you think you get bonus mystery spells on top of these free known ones!?
So you didn't read the class features and just started asking questions? no wonder you're confused about it.
If you don't you should at least let people know you aren't putting the effort and want answers spoon fed to you.
I could easily post a question here asking if Rogues all get fancy hats with feathers as part of their class. I could view it as a valid question because when I do a search nothing comes up and there's nothing said in there about them getting it....
...comes off sounding condescending. If you can't answer a question without insulting the person, maybe just don't answer it.
Some people are still learning how the system works. Some people are still learning how etiquette works. Let's all cut each other some slack.
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to which my first reply his was
Damn. Sorry for asking a question dude. I don't think I do. I don't know if I do or not, for the reason I stated: prestige classes that advance casting all indicate that they add spells known for spontaneous casters.
so then I replied and pointed out he didn't read the class before asking a question, realizing he's new I provided a reply that was very clear and precise in how things work, and then got the following reply
So, after trimming off all the "I'm a massive %&@;#?% and fell the need to spend 90% of my comment abusing someone for wanting a clear answer to something" attitude
that's when I then replied with the "condescending" spoon fed comment. He clearly didn't read the class entirely, and when it was explained throughly to him, he still took cause with the language that was devoid of anything "mean"
I took time out of my day to reply to him, for the sake of educating him. If he can't tolerate having where he failed to even read pointed out, he's too thin skinned for the internet.
He didn't ask you specifically for help. He asked the community. If other people's learning curves offend your sensibilities, maybe leave the question for someone with more patience.
I'm putting together a character that will eventually become a Rage Prophet. Which has led to some questions regarding advancing one.
Obviously, the two levels of Barbarian will only count for 1/2 each toward the Oracle's curse. I'm 90% sure that the Rage Prophet levels also only count 1/2 each, but not 100%.
Nope -- the Rage Prophet levels stack because of Savage Seer..
Savage Seer: A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
... Which means that the Prophet levels make rage powers, curses and revelations stronger -- but at the same time, it doesn't give you any new ones.
The question of whether this allows you access to higher level powers if you use feats to get there (Extra Rage Power or Extra Revelation) is actually a good one -- good enough that it was answered in the FAQ -- so don't worry about it.
On levels where the Rage Prophet advances spellcasting, it gives spells known. Does that include mystery bonus spells?
bonus spells are a class feature from oracles, does the rage prophet say you get them? (answer is no)
Rage Prophet Mystery: At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle's mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide. The rage prophet treats the spell as an oracle spell of the listed level. The possible spells are arcane eye (4th), augury (2nd), divination (4th), dream (5th), find the path (6th), helping hand (3rd), see invisibility (2nd), shadow walk (6th), speak with dead (3rd), spectral hand (2nd), spiritual weapon (2nd), unseen servant (1st), vision (7th), and whispering wind (2nd).why on earth would you think you get bonus mystery spells on top of these free known ones!?
When you multi-class into something like say Eldritch knight and you're a sorcerer, does it progress your bloodline abilities?
The answer is no, because all it does is progress your spell casting ability and spells known.
That Rage Prophet Mystery grants Spells Known has no direct bearing on this issue,
it doesn't preclude Oracle Mystery spells any more than the standard Spells Known from the Table.The relevant wording is identical for pretty much all Casting PrCs, including Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, etc.
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.That line doesn't specify any specific class feature these elements must come from, simply 'as if he had also gained a level in [the] class', so from whatever class feature they come from, you gain 'spells per day, spells known, and increased effective level of spellcasting' [AKA Caster Level boosts], whatever the source within the class. Mystery Spells, or Bloodline Spells, are spells known, as if they weren't then the Oracle/Sorceror simply couldn't cast them with their spell slots, there is no special or unique activation method given to otherwise use them.
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6.
If you weren't sure that the Mystery Bonus Spells were Spells Known (i.e. something you could cast, rather than something pretty to write on your character sheet and never do anything with), that line establishes that they are equivalent to the Table 2-6 of freely choosable/exchangeable Spells Known, i.e. they are in addition to something else of equivalent type.
There's no fundamental reason any class needs to follow any specific format, I could write a spellcasting class that granted each and every spell known and spell slot as a separately named class feature, all those would be gained by advancing thru the PrCs. In other words, spells known are an inherent part of spontaneous caster classes, and whether or how they are presented as different class features is irrelevant to PrC advancement.
Likewise, things like Arcane Bloodline's granting of additional spells known as a Bloodline Power are granted by advancement thru Eldritch Knight because they are spells known gained from class levels.
Rage Prophets advancing Oracle casting also benefit from automatically learning Cure/Inflict spells, although that is directly from wording the Oracle class itself.
Rage Prophets DO miss out on a feature of Oracle casting: the 're-learning' or exchanging of old spells known (barring mystery spells and automatic cure/inflict spells) for new ones of their choice, as that is an option that only happens every 4 oracle levels and isn't mentioned by Rage Prophet. Although it could be argued that the INTENTION is for that to be allowed, given that the 'Rage Prophet Mystery' spells feature specifically mentions how they cannot be 'exchanged', albeit that could come into play if you dip back into Oracle from Rage Prophet. Per RAW, that option is not available from Rage Prophet levels.
But everything I can see of the RAW points to getting ALL spells known from the base casting class (including Mystery Bonus Spells), as well as any more spells known granted by the PrC itself (i.e. Rage Prophet Mystery spells).
The question of whether this allows you access to higher level powers if you use feats to get there (Extra Rage Power or Extra Revelation) is actually a good one -- good enough that it was answered in the FAQ -- so don't worry about it.
It was? Can someone give me a link please as I never found it in the FAQS. (I wish the FAQ was a single page instead of all broken up).
But everything I can see of the RAW points to getting ALL spells known from the base casting class (including Mystery Bonus Spells), as well as any more spells known granted by the PrC itself (i.e. Rage Prophet Mystery spells).
Now I've got two conflicting opinions. My assumption with stuff like this is usually that it doesn't, but I've found plenty of examples that work favourably for the player.
As long as we're pointing out things that people should be reading before posting here:
We'd like to foster a positive, friendly community here at paizo.com, so please be polite in your postings.
And I want to apologize to lantzkev. I took offence to the tone of his response (which is difficult at best to convey in text - what is read may not be what was intended) and escalated things when I should not have.
HERE: (APG is the book Oracle and Rage Prophet are in, so that's where the FAQ is)
Rage Prophet: Does a rage prophet's savage seer ability allow him to stack his barbarian or oracle levels with his rage prophet levels to qualify for rage powers and mysteries?
No.
—Sean K Reynolds, 11/23/10
Ah I see. I searched for "Extra Rage Power" and "Extra Revelation" without success. Well at least that's a nice clear answer.
Right, the FAQ is broader than just those Feats because it's also relevant for determining what you qualify for re: level pre-reqs when you dip back into the base Classes and want to take Revelations/Rage Powers 'normally' granted by the Class.
Right, the FAQ is broader than just those Feats because it's also relevant for determining what you qualify for re: level pre-reqs when you dip back into the base Classes and want to take Revelations/Rage Powers 'normally' granted by the Class.
Good point. I suppose that theoretically my Prophet would wind up having to go back to Oracle for level 17.
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On levels where the Rage Prophet advances spellcasting, it gives spells known. Does that include mystery bonus spells?bonus spells are a class feature from oracles, does the rage prophet say you get them? (answer is no)
Rage Prophet Mystery: At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known. Like spells from an oracle's mystery, the rage prophet cannot exchange these spells for different spells at higher levels. The rage prophet must be able to cast oracle spells of the listed level to learn one of these spells from his spirit guide. The rage prophet treats the spell as an oracle spell of the listed level. The possible spells are arcane eye (4th), augury (2nd), divination (4th), dream (5th), find the path (6th), helping hand (3rd), see invisibility (2nd), shadow walk (6th), speak with dead (3rd), spectral hand (2nd), spiritual weapon (2nd), unseen servant (1st), vision (7th), and whispering wind (2nd).why on earth would you think you get bonus mystery spells on top of these free known ones!?
When you multi-class into something like say Eldritch knight and you're a sorcerer, does it progress your bloodline abilities?
The answer is no, because all it does is progress your spell casting ability and spells known.That Rage Prophet Mystery grants Spells Known has no direct bearing on this issue,
it doesn't preclude Oracle Mystery spells any more than the standard Spells Known from the Table.
The relevant wording is identical for pretty much all Casting PrCs, including Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, etc.Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have...
Mystery bonus spells are not provided by rage prophet class. Do not tell people incorrect information by saying that because it's a spell it's included in the "progresses as if they were a spell caster of that class" This references only the spells known chart and spells per day chart. The fact that it does not give you "mystery spells known as if you had advanced a level of oracle" is the reason you do not get these mystery spells.
I pointed out the rage prophet mystery spells known so that it was clear you're already getting mystery spells too, so you're not missing you just not getting the bonus spells from whatever your mystery is. It's clear cut you do not get any more bonus spells from your oracles mystery.
Regardless of your own personal rational behind it, if it does not say you get it, you do not get it.
But everything I can see of the RAW points to getting ALL spells known from the base casting class (including Mystery Bonus Spells), as well as any more spells known granted by the PrC itself (i.e. Rage Prophet Mystery spells).Now I've got two conflicting opinions. My assumption with stuff like this is usually that it doesn't, but I've found plenty of examples that work favourably for the player.
Playing around with Hero Lab just now; seems that it has the same interpretation as Quandry does.
This references only the spells known chart and spells per day chart.
Can you quote that reference please?
Saying it 'references only the chart' when the chart is nowhere mentioned in the PrC is telling people incorrect information. Regardless of what you think the intent may be, there is a discrepancy of what you are claiming and what the text actually says. So unless you petition for a FAQ that is then answered otherwise, we only have the RAW to guide us.
The PrC DOES provide spells per day and /spells known from the base class/, i.e. the whole base class, not just one specific class feature or chart. The Mystery Bonus Spells ARE associated with the spells known table as being of the same type, i.e. 'in addition' to them, so rather than being a completely useless thing to write on your character sheet, it seems reasonable to consider them spells known. Again, if the Mystery Spells are not Spells Known, then a regular Oracle has no means to cast them: they only cast using the regular Spontaneous Casting rules, which use spells known for Spontaneous Casters. If they are spells known, then that IS something granted by the casting progression of the PrC (any spontaneous casting PrC really, not unique to this one), since the Spellcasting progression wording isn't limited to a specific class feature.
There is no top end of numbers of spells known you can have. Some casting classes grant more spells known then others. That the PrC wants to grant you additional spells known in no way conflicts with the casting progression granting you spells known from the base class, and whether some of those are from a table and some from another class feature has no bearing on things.
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Spells per Day:: At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a rage prophet, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day.
Mystery: Each oracle draws upon a divine mystery to grant her spells and powers. This mystery also grants additional class skills and other special abilities. This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent. Regardless of its source, the mystery manifests in a number of ways as the oracle gains levels. An oracle must pick one mystery upon taking her first level of oracle. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
The bonus Spells comes from the Mystery not the "spells per day" The class feature "rage prophet" does not advance your Oracles Mystery.
The curse advances on it's own regardless of oracle levels or not, but that's not the ability that grants bonus spells.
Savage Seer: A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.
The oracle revelation and the oracles curse is not the "mystery" that grants additional bonus spells. This in conjunction with already getting what's in effect a new set of bonus spells there's no reason to think you get bonus spells nor is there any raw to think you do.
Basing your choices off of hero lab is not basing your thoughts on an official paizo product.
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I wasn't being a jerk. Our OP and others fail at reading. If stating you're wrong is being a jerk, all teachers are jerks.
If using the phrase "how on earth do you think that" is being a jerk, I guess I'm a jerk, although it wasn't the intent by far.
If pointing out that he didn't read the class and that it's no wonder he's confused is being a jerk, I certainly am a jerk. In all fairness I expect people to at least read the material they have questions over, and if they fail to do this, it should be pointed out they need to read it.
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The poster that tried to point out me being a jerk in condescending message, deleted it, so now the above looks silly.
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The poster that tried to point out me being a jerk in condescending message, deleted it, so now the above looks silly.
I think that makes him the jerk?
Is going on a tangent, about someone going on a tangent, about not being a jerk, an act of a jerk?
If so, then I am screwed too.
I think we're all screwed bbt. (As a tangent to the previous tangent, why is that a bad thing?)