Hi forum fellows,
I'm looking to start running one of the APs in the next several months and I'm thinking of enforcing a radical rule. Basically, that all spellcasting classes are 'prestige classes', only in the sense that PCs and NPCs must have half as many levels in a non-spellcasting class as they have in spellcasting classes. Consequently, all PCs begin with a level in a class that has no spellcasting progression.
The idea is that magic use in the game world is not rare, but access to the truly powerful spells (bard spell levels 5-6 and the other spell levels 7-9) is extremely rare. (I'm considering options for the paladin and ranger.)
What I'd like to know is whether anyone else on the forum has tried something similar with spellcasting classes. If so, what was your experience with gameplay? If not, can you think of things I might need to take into consideration besides the natural fact that the PCs (and NPCs) will not have the same access to conjuration (healing) magic?
What about characters that have low physical stats and high mentals?
They would be terrible at everything.
That is something to consider. Thanks. I'm thinking how we use an array and my players always place their stats according to their chosen class(es) so that's unlikely to hurt them. More the NPCs.
There is a reason that the eldritch knight, arcane trickster and mystic theurge exist. That reason is multiclassing and spellcasting do not mix unless you are nearly all caster or nearly all not.
Anybody who wants to actually play a caster will be pathetically weak for their level. You might see melee-focused dragon disciples, but apart from that investing half of your levels into a spellcasting progression doesn't give you much return.
Thanks for the feedback Atarlost and Mortuum.
I can see that the bigger risk to balance will turn out to be the monsters. The NPCs with class levels all face the same spellcasting restriction, so I don't think I need to worry about them being overpowered spell-wise. Also, I have six players who attend regularly, so this should allow me to play some monsters as written instead of boosting them and adding allies all the time.
Atarlost, I'll read through the manuals to see what spells might be expected. I notice that the authors tend to write things like, "if the PCs have access to teleportation magic do A, if not then B". And of course, some have the bad guys calling planar allies, creating simulacra, granting themselves a wish, opening gates (okay, I made that last one up). I'll have to figure out what that means within the system.
Just for clarification, Mortuum, I don't mean to force a half-and-half approach. Rather, you have half as many levels in non-spellcasting classes, so, for example, near the end of the AP the PC could be a barbarian 5/oracle 10 or a rogue 5/wizard 10 if she wanted to get as many spellcasting levels as possible.
Again, I really appreciate people's insight so that I can head off avoidable problems in the future (or abandon the idea if it seems too much of a headache).
I understand that you don't meant to force it, but anybody who takes any significant number of spellcasting levels will be crippled by your system.
You don't multiclass into wizard unless you're heading into a prestige class designed to correct the fact that multiclass wizards are too weak. Anybody taking more than a couple of wizard levels will be weakened by them if they're not allowed to commit whole hog.
As a rule of thumb, spellcasting abilities increase in power by a factor of 2 for every 2 levels gained. This means that a wizard who multi-classes falls in power dramatically for every level he invests outside of wizard.
A fighter 2 / Wizard 4 is about half as powerful as a wizard 6.
A fighter 4 / Wizard 8 is about one quarter as powerful as a wizard 12.
A fighter 6 / Wizard 12 is about one eight as powerful as a wizard 18.
I'd say you're probably fine if you just force characters to take their first level in a non-spellcasting class. This will make spellcasting roughly 50% less powerful the whole way through and doesn't require much in the way of modification.
If you want magic as prestige only, you could adjust caster tables so that when you take your first level of spellcaster (presumably at level 6), you get the equivalent of 1-6 levels of casting right away and then scale normally after that.
This would mean spellcasters could strive after their 'awakening' for a while, and then get a sudden burst of magical ability when they finally break through.
I think its a fascinating idea, but not not necessarily one that will go over well. I believe Warhammer RPG did it this way. I came up with this same requirement years ago, where a character must have half or more of his levels in non-casting classes. I didn't try it, because I know the fun of it plays out better in my head than it would at the table. Talk to your group and hear people's thoughts. Chances are that not everyone will be on board with it. If I am wrong then go for it. I'd love to hear how i goes.
Thanks for that list of must-have spells, Atarlost. I'll look into how that kind of effect plays out. My first thought is that, invisibility and see invisibility are the same level, along with lesser restoration and resist energy, which all still come before fireball, lightning bolt and the like. So most spellcasters are getting them at the same time. Of course, I'll have to see when ability draining monsters, diseases, poisons and the like come into play.
Maybe I'm missing something, Mortuum, but when I read what you wrote I think to myself, 'but the whole world faces the same restrictions'. I understand and have to account for the fact that the PCs won't have much to counter death effects but otherwise, I'm maybe not understanding where the problem lies. Is it that a 5th level barbarian/10th level sorcerer can't hold a candle to a 15th level barbarian? I suppose that might be true (I'm not sure it is, given the incredible power and versatility that magic affords), but couldn't six 15th level multiclass PCs tackle a challenge designed for four 15th level PCs?
I appreciate the new voices, too! The idea of a modified world actually comes from my players, Ciaran (a name I love), so I'm not too worried about people feeling like something has been taken away. I tried E6 in a different campaign, but it didn't have the same epic feel to it. The flip side is that my players don't like a world where they are "required" to have someone use time stop, greater spell immunity, resurrection, finger of death, and discern location just to tackle the challenge because if they don't the baddies will.
I'm imagining that a world where characters don't get to the 7th-9th-level spells before they reach epic levels might be just what we talked about at the table. (Of course, I'll run it by them when I have a concrete concept to present.)
I like the different creative ideas people are throwing out. I don't think Umbral Weaver's will work for us, just because it's those upper levels I want to postpone as opposed to the lower ones. But it does make me think about how such a 'delayed reward' system might work for us.
Dasrak, I'll consider what you're saying and whether it's enough to simply require a 1st level of a nonspellcasting class. It staves off that feeling of working with higher level spells for one level - about 1/3 to 1/2 of a later book in the APs. I'll discuss with my players whether that would be enough, since in real time it's several months of play.
Is it that a 5th level barbarian/10th level sorcerer can't hold a candle to a 15th level barbarian?
Yes, this is very much the case. A 15th level barbarian has 10 extra levels worth of class features that improve his combat abilities, and has a 5-point higher attack bonus (meaning significantly better accuracy in combat). As well, he can wear armor without restrictions.
The sorcerer class, on the other hand, has access to only 5th level spells rather than 7th level spells, and his spells per day and caster level are considerably lower.
Overall, if I was told that I needed to play the party caster in this world, my solution would be a one-level (maybe two) dip in Sorcerer for a half-decent bloodline and then just stock up on scrolls and wands. There's no point in progressing further since your caster level will be so atrophied as to be largely worthless, and you're better off just shelling out gold whenever you need a spell. Multi-class spellcasters just do not function well in Pathfinder.
I'd like to point out one assumption I'm making that responders might not realize. In a world where magic users also have levels of non-spellcasting classes, I don't think there are any 'straight' spellcasters who rely entirely on their magic or spells. Anyone who knows how to cast spells is also trained to fight with (at least some) martial weapons. They have proficiency in at least light armor (and it would be practically mandatory to find ways to reduce the chance of arcane spell failure). Any prolonged combat will likely see all participants fighting hand-to-hand at some point. And I think that's great.
Thanks for that feedback Dasrak. It might be that my players discover that they prefer only to dip. I think that would be okay.
On the other hand, I think 5th level sorcerer spells are fantastic. I just glance at the spell list and smile at all the incredible options in the Core Rulebook alone.
I will take your comments to heart if and when we take this to playtesting (we're thinking about running a higher-level module just to see how things play out in reality.) Perhaps you're right that a barbarian can be tricked out to avoid everything the barbarian/sorcerer can throw at her. I have my doubts, though. Especially outnumbered.
In a world where magic users also have levels of non-spellcasting classes, I don't think there are any 'straight' spellcasters who rely entirely on their magic or spells
I could see some Wizard/Expert type NPC's filling that niche, but as far as their abilities in combat go their CR would be grossly inflated compared to the actual threat they present. I'd anticipate that the most powerful magic will be buffing spells in such a world. Saving throws would vastly outpace DC's and hit dice would vastly outpace damage dice, so offensive magic would be largely worthless. Due to reduced spell level availability, summons would fall behind. So spellcasters would be shoe-horned into utility and buffing spells. That's a fairly limited niche.
You could make an arguement that the party as a whole would benefit from having such a character, but this would be largely equivalent to the 2nd edition Cleric. Someone has to do it for the benefit of the party, but that person isn't going to have fun because their character only exists to complement the other player's characters and is largely impotent on his own.
If you just don't want to see high-level spells in your game, why not just ban wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and witches and be done with it. Then use the Alchemist, Bard, Magus, Summoner, and Inquisitor as replacement classes for those kinds of characters.
I think I see what you're saying, Dasrak. Much of what makes the classes enjoyable and playable is what they can do in combat. It definitely is a large part of the game and every AP I've been involved with also gets mired at some point in a 'fight your way from room to room until you fight the bad guy', a.k.a., the dungeon crawl.
I don't remember 2nd Edition, but I understand your example. I'll think about the implications of your last suggestion regarding banning. My instinct is that it would be too restrictive, but that's only because I haven't taken a look to see what it would mean for magic items, AP NPCs etc.
Yeah, the trouble is spellcasting is far from compatible with pretty much everything else. For example that sorcerer barbarian either has to give up his armour or invest feats in armour compatibility. You have to reduce your effectiveness at your primary job to be able to use your spellcasting.
Then there's the actions issue. Each turn, a fighter 4/wizard 4 has to choose whether to be a 4th level wizard or a 6th level fighter. Neither of those represent a threat to a fighter 4/ rogue 4, who can use all his class levels at once.
Think of it this way: Not only do you get fewer spells per day than a pure caster would, you cast less powerful spells which have lesser effects and work less often, and when your spells do work they are less powerful for their spell level because your caster level is also lower. You are being penalised four times. The loss of the favoured class bonus on half your levels is just insult to injury.
Successfully blending spells with something else pretty much means you have to take a class that's dedicated to it, like arcane trickster, magus or a divine full caster.
I suggest giving all spellcasters an additional level of their spellcasting progression for every 2 levels they have in other classes (even other spellcasting classes). That way they end up at 3/4 of their usual power rather that 1/2, so characters who take as much spellcasting as they're allowed will end up on par with the arcane trickster and the eldritch knight.
I think I see what you're saying, Dasrak. Much of what makes the classes enjoyable and playable is what they can do in combat. It definitely is a large part of the game and every AP I've been involved with also gets mired at some point in a 'fight your way from room to room until you fight the bad guy', a.k.a., the dungeon crawl.
In non-combat scenarios, these multi-class characters should be fine. Versatility tends to take a front seat as opposed to raw power and specialization in those kinds of circumstances. However, you're specifically mentioning an AP meaning that a lot of situations are going to end up with combat.
I don't remember 2nd Edition, but I understand your example
It's before my time, as well. My experience with it is primarily the Baldur's Gate CRPG series, and from second-hand knowledge passed down by others. Clerics got spontaneous casting for cure spells in 3rd edition for a reason.
My instinct is that it would be too restrictive, but that's only because I haven't taken a look to see what it would mean for magic items, AP NPCs etc.
If you're cutting out a third of their class levels, then you're already talking about a total rebuild anyways.
Hmm. Dasrak put forth an idea early on about just requiring 1 level of non-spellcasting class (1st level). Now an idea is floating around in my head about simply capping levels in spellcasting classes at 12. In the end, it also avoids 7th-9th level spells for clerics et al. and 5th-6th level spells for bards et al. At the same time, up until that point the the classes are not weakened in any way and play out normally. I'm thinking that means that lower-level magic items are still fairly easy to get your hands on for the same cost but upper-level magic items are rare. (Well, I said 'capping' the levels, but I'll think about other options if the players want to 'continue the adventure' after the AP).
By the way, everyone... I honestly appreciate that people are being constructive and not trolling the topic. This is a homebrew; I like Pathfinder and I've run two APs and now play one AP with the regular rules (and 1 with E6). I'm sure I'll do it again. For this particular group, though, I wanted to see if I can build what some of the changes they want regarding upper-level spellcasting into the game from the get-go.
This would make scarred witch doctor barbarians even more viable.
I'll have to look those up. That isn't the first time I've heard that name mentioned. APG?
Scarred witch doctor is a orc witch racial archetype. All its abilities are based on constitution instead of intelligence, even spellcasting. It is in the advanced race guide.
Yikes! I suppose it is still susceptible to +5 enchanted household appliances! ;-)
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I am starting a new campaign in two weeks (just coming off of book 2 of WotW) in which magic is less understood than normal. Basically, I went through and reduced spell progression.
Full casters cap at lvl 5 spells
Mid casters cap at lvl 4
Low casters cap at lvl 3
I've given them all either bonus feats, improved HD, or improved BAB (3/4).
After looking through all of the different level spells, I came to the conclusion that level 5 is essentially when you start opening up "god mode". Level 5 spells are extremely powerful, problem solvers, so I figured that should be the pinnacle of their power.
I also removed the possibility of SR for energy damage, and increased the lvl cap of bonus healing that cure spells do.
If you're interested in the progression I developed, I could upload it for you.
Yikes! I suppose it is still susceptible to +5 enchanted household appliances! ;-)
there is nothing that can stand against them. You should see the +3 vicious blender.
That would be great, Abadar. I'd love to take a look and see if it might suit my players better.
It would be hard to play a pure caster just in the name of making basic magic common and powerful magic rare. There are other ways to do it. Is this purely for flavor or is it for balance?
You're basically making everyone some kind of martial class, since it's unlikely anyone is going to take levels in rogue or bard and not be able to help in combat as a watered-down caster. That could be what you're going for, though. A bunch of magus-types running around would be interesting to play in...
There are other way around it where you could keep the casters, though. Everyone, regardless of class, could get the cantrips feat, For example. You could also break out casters spell slots awarded as they level into multiple smaller slots; So rather than awarding a fourth level spell they can choose between a third and first, two seconds, etc. That way they would have some utility but keep in line with the "powerful magic is rare" theme...
I hear what you're saying, Atarlost. And I consider it part of my job in this case to comb ahead in the AP to see just what challenges the PCs face and, as importantly, when they face them. I don't feel that the bestiaries become worthless, but I do recognize that these creatures are more deadly. I have to admit, though, that part of me thinks these monsters are more interesting if the PCs don't automatically gain the ability to ignore what makes them special before they even meet them.
Having said that, I am considering the other options people have brought up here. You didn't suggest this, but I want to reiterate that it has never been my intention to penalize my players by 'denying' them upper level magic; rather, they asked what options we would have for reworking the system. Consequently, I think my players would be interested in playing spellcasters in such a system. Still, if we playtest it and find that it's just too screwy, we'll look at options outside Pathfinder.
I think that if to play a game you have to butcher half the page of the manual, that game might not be for you. Houseruling small adjustment is the nature of this game, but reworking half of the core rulebook is just too big of an issue.
Some possible options, rather than a pre-determined ratio of caster/non-caster levels:
1) Require Eldritch Heritage before taking levels in a caster class. Basically, only those with the background/inherent potential and focus can "learn" magic. This means that 1st-3rd level characters cannot be casters at all. This would also have the effect of making Cha important to all casters, instead of just some. You could even limit specific caster classes to specific bloodlines (cleric to Abyssal/Celestial/Infernal/Undead, witch to Accursed, wizard to Arcane, etc.).
2) Limit the available caster classes, instead of allowing all of them. Depending on how you want the world to work, you could limit specific classes or even methods of casting (prepared or spontaneous) along arcane/divine types. For instance, arcane could be limited to prepared casters (alchemist, magus, witch, wizard) while divine could be limited to spontaneous casters (inquisitor and oracle); or vice versa (bards, sorcerers, and summoners vs. clerics and druids).
3) Paladins and rangers can be limited to non-caster versions (i.e., warrior of the holy light paladins and skirmisher rangers) or you could use the d20 Prestige Class versions (with some minor editing). You could also combine the prestige paladin with d20 variant paladins for "holy warriors" other than LG.
4) Use the Words of Power alternate magic system. This makes magic a bit more flexible, but many "powerful" spells are not available (or are only able to be emulated using a higher level wordspell).
Thanks for those links Dragonchess Player! I wasn't familiar with the d20 Prestige Class versions (or rather, I think I heard of them once but promptly forgot). Those Words of Power bear further scrutiny, too. I admit I kind of flew over the pages when perusing Ultimate Magic.