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So Westboro is gathering in my hometown for the very first time next week, and I'm organizing a sort of counter protest.
Westboro likes to push peoples buttons and then sue them, so I'm imploring people to stay calm, and focus on being a human barrier between them, and the churches and high schools that they're going to gather around.
I've also gotten in touch with the Wounded Warriors Project to turn their demonstration into a fundraiser for the WWP - turn a negative into a positive, yeah?
So I'm wondering: have any of you guys been involved in countering Westboro? Do you have any suggestions or advice on how to handle them?
NOTE:
I really don't want this thread to devolve into a political or religious debate; please keep such discussions out of the thread. I don't want this devolving into yelling and screaming after post #4.
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I've also gotten in touch with the Wounded Warriors Project to turn their demonstration into a fundraiser for the WWP - turn a negative into a positive, yeah?
@#$% yes. I think there are some other folks worth getting in touch with too. I think that biker group* is still running interference on request, at least when funerals are involved.
I've never had to join in a counter because they cancelled their appearance in my town(there is an alarming amount of overlap in a Venn diagram of our local populace and the supporting cast of the Borderlands series, but this time it worked out in our favor), but the most important thing to make sure everyone involved understands is to keep their cool and maintain the high ground. Sounds like you're already aiming for that though. :)
*edit- Patriot Guard Riders, they'll try to show for funerals for soldiers, firefighters, and law enforcement.
Oh, and lots of cameras. For evidence, just in case. Turns out some of them like to spit on people.
I started a group on facebook, and I'm trying to repeat to everyone that if anything gets violent on our end, I will throw that person under the bus; for my own legal safety, as well as for my own amusement :)
I'm also moderating everyone's posts to keep things from sounding violent, angry, Christian-bashing/blaming, Atheist-bashing/blaming, etc. This is in order to keep the event page welcoming for everyone, as well as security just in case there IS a lawsuit; that way the WBC can't use our group as "proof of coordinating an attack on them". Let me tell you, all of the people who talk crap about the moderators on these boards? You've never had to herd cats like this before, let me tell you. PM a Paizo mod today and thank them for their services.
I will contact Patriot Guard Riders! That's an awesome idea. Unfortunately, Thunder Beach was last week, or else we could have gotten a lot more bikers to help us out :)
Thanks for the suggestions, Mikaze!
You sure the Westboro protesters won't try to goad your protesters into violence, or just attack them?
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The only other thing that sticks out to me is possibly contacting whoever it is they're targetting. If it's a funeral, and these days I generally assume it is, I can't help but feel it's required to have their relatives' blessings before continuing.
I've never tried to organize anything like this before, so I have no idea how these contacts are usually structured. Like, do you ask them if they would like a "drown out"-style protest so that they don't have to see or hear those jerks? And if so, would they have any preferences on what to drown them out with?
I don't envy your workload, but major props for taking this on. :)
You sure the Westboro protesters won't try to goad your protesters into violence, or just attack them?
They'll try; that's how the family makes their money.
That's why I'm trying to organize a human barrier instead of a counter protest. I want to ban signs, offensive t-shirts, etc from our gathering, just to show that we aren't there looking for a fight.
They're coming down specifically to protest one of our high schools, and I want to be there to shield the kids. That they're hitting some churches while they're in town seems incidental.
Edited for grammar/spelling
They're also hitting our Air Force base, but I'm going to let the soldiers handle that one themselves :)
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They're coming down specifically to protest one of our high schools, and I want to be there to shield the kids.
Oh man, there is some actual fun to be had here.
Marching band rehearsal as interference? Current students with coordination from the school or graduates?
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Good for you.
My only suggestion is check the laws of your area...I am sure local law enforcements would be happy to advise you...to see if they push things too far. If they do use that against them.
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I'm off of work on Monday. I'm going to go to each of the churches and the high school, and let them know what we have planned before we show up.
Edit:
Good for you.
My only suggestion is check the laws of your area...I am sure local law enforcements would be happy to advise you...to see if they push things too far. If they do use that against them.
Also the police :)
Thank you for reminding me about that one :)
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Also another suggesting occured to me...keep a eye on the people who volunteer. While sure many of them might not think that they will throw a punch...when faced with a situration they just might. So just keep a eye on things and pull somebody from the wall who seems to be loosing control.
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I like the marching band idea.
When we had the shooting here in AZ, a group of college students showed up with huge angel wings (though, it really just looked like a wall of white sheets) to block the sight of the protesters. Perhaps something similar would work for your group as well.
Good luck to you in your efforts at a peaceful prevention.
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Oh! Hey! There are some legal protections if the protesters show up on actual school property. (At least there are in AZ, iirc.) Something about criminal trespass at a school. Check and see what protections your area may have.
Good luck!
A couple of things to keep in mind:
-They have logo-emblazoned vans and generally are easy to find. Alternatively, just look for Kansas plates.
-They tend to leave if you have a sufficient counter-protest. This happened when they came to protest a school play in Hastings, MN. I was at that counter-protest.
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Given their 'God Hates [X]' message, may I make a few suggestions.
Get the 'alternative' crowd involved if possible. You would be amazed how many gay/lesbian/alterative support groups and people actively hate the Westboro Church and will throw a great deal of support your way if you plan to peacefully oppose these irritants.
Get retired soldiers and police officers involved and get them to help you manage and control your counter-march people, as they will likely have both the knowledge and the discipline to maintain order without stepping across the legal line.
And THAT is all the Westboro care about. Legalities and the ability to sue you. They will put their children up the front of of their pickets as both shields and as a method to enrage people even further, then purposefully aggravate and hurt people who are already hurting, in some of the worst ways a Human being can, to try and provoke a violent response so they can pursue litigation.
I cannot stress how important it is that you clear this with your local government and police, and make sure that everyone who is coming knows full well that they cannot fall to the same level as the Westboro folks. Not one racial slur, one anti-religious line or anything that can even be remotely construed as a threat or slander can be allowed to come from your people.
Westboro has made a fortune off litigation. Don't feed the beast.
If you can, line the front of your counter-protest with devout folks of Christians and Catholics (and other religions, but I name these two for a reason) and ask them to start saying prayers asking God to forgive the Westboro people for their ways and their hate. Ironicly, facing true Faith that is not based upon chasing people for money and attention, the Westboro will likely get even angrier and probably start to actively push the line of what they can get away with legally, or if we're lucky, walk away.
Couple more things:
DO NOT PREVENT THEM FROM LEAVING. If they park their vehicles somewhere, feel free to have your Counter-Protest blockade them from getting within a set distance (as dictated by your local government or ordanances, as the case may be) whatever event they are intended to crash, but do not block them from going around the event (and you can act as bodyguards, if you will, for the event, blocking them from going TO the event) and most importantly, do not block them from returning to their vehicles.
FILM EVERYTHING. Everyone gets a camera, a digital phone with a camera or a video recorder and tape everything. Upload directly to YouTube if you can from as many accounts as you can, and make sure what you're doing is in the LEGAL right. The Westboro 'Church' is an entity that makes it' living through litigation, and you can bet your bottom dollar that they will be actively pushing for you or another member of the Counter-Protest to make a mistake they can capitalize upon.
LOUDER THAN WORDS. Dance. Play Music in theme with whatever event they plan to crash, and play it just under the local government laws for 'noise pollution'. Put up signs asking people to shout "God loves everyone, even you!" as they pass the Westboro pickets. Fight their negativity with positive actions. The louder and crueler they get, the louder and more positive, more friendlier you get in return, until they either lose the will to fight you, or they break the law, and the local government/police can move in to take them down.
If it's a Funeral, start shouting praises to those that have died, and thank them loudly, over the top of the Westboro protesters.
If it's a celebration of gay rights, play loud, happy music that fits the scene and dance. Have a party (within legal limits) and piss them off immensely when you refuse to let them make you angry.
These 'people' thrive on negativity and on hurting people to make them lash out and then be vulnerable to the laws being twisted. Fight back by being positive and untouchable, and give the Westboro an even fouler reputation in the process.
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Gather as many people as possible who can show up wearing zombie outfits and makeup. As the local hangout/burger joint/bar to have a zombie evening where people get something free if in Zombie gear. Have contests for best Zombie Protester with small, fun prizes.
Make the whole event into a party and enjoy yourselves while helping.
I have said this before and I will say it again, though I'm sure it won't change the minds of anyone. Please stop giving these people attention, that is what they want. Don't counter-protest. Don't form a human barrier. Just ignore them.
Do you counter-protest the crazy guy with the sandwich board saying the world is ending? No, you realize he is crazy and ignore him and move on. That is the level attention these people deserve and no more.
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I have said this before and I will say it again, though I'm sure it won't change the minds of anyone. Please stop giving these people attention, that is what they want. Don't counter-protest. Don't form a human barrier. Just ignore them.
Do you counter-protest the crazy guy with the sandwich board saying the world is ending? No, you realize he is crazy and ignore him and move on. That is the level attention these people deserve and no more.
That doesn't help those that the WBC are harassing and hurting. Considering that many of their favorite targets are people that are already dealing with loss, people willing to serve as barriers are needed.
If someone is willing to stop the WBC from casting a shadow over people that really do not need it, I say good on them.
It's not about hurting the WBC. It's about keeping them from hurting others.
I have said this before and I will say it again, though I'm sure it won't change the minds of anyone. Please stop giving these people attention, that is what they want. Don't counter-protest. Don't form a human barrier. Just ignore them.
Do you counter-protest the crazy guy with the sandwich board saying the world is ending? No, you realize he is crazy and ignore him and move on. That is the level attention these people deserve and no more.
We're not going to show up to yell back at them; this isn't exactly a counter-protest (which, as I said in my OP, it is a counter-protest of sorts). I've requested that no one show up with signs, offensive clothing, etc because our jobs would be to shield the people exiting the churches and keep them from being harassed. They're hitting the Sunday masses on all of the churches they're picketing, and I want to make sure that everyone gets to their cars safely.
I don't subscribe to any of these religions, but by golly, this is my town, and these are my churches by proximity.
Our job would be the same at the high school; they're showing up on a Tuesday afternoon, and I would like to be there to keep the kids separated from these lunatics.
This is all hinging on how my meetings with the churches and the high school go. If they don't want us there, then I'll let them handle it.
You might want to check with your local International Brotherhood of Teamsters local.
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You might want to check with your local International Brotherhood of Teamsters local.
I think I just found you the perfect T-Shirt to supply to your counter-protesters!
You might want to check with your local International Brotherhood of Teamsters local.I think I just found you the perfect T-Shirt to supply to your counter-protesters!
Actually, I'm wearing this one :)
They're coming here (Panama City) this week or next week. I was really confused as to why they'd drive this far but my assumption is even morons have their own spring break.
That's where I live; I posted a News Herald link on it :P
I'd love to see how long they'd last in Australia, I suspect they'd get in one, maybe two protests. We are a pretty laid back nation, but people like these bring out our worst.
That is very civil indeed.
Here it would end one of two ways.
1) They protest, the Police note the signs Westboro like to wave about, the lot of them get thrown in jail under our Vilification laws.
OR
2) They get released, and do it a second time. The crowd, knowing that these suckers wont learn, turns violent and destructive, the Westboro people have what the media will later describe as 'a bad day' and the Police stand about for an hour consulting their media liaison about the best way to go about breaking up the fray. Half the Westboro people would be in hospital, and the Police would charge a few usual suspects for littering, because the beer bottles they pelted the demonstrators with weren't picked up afterwards.
Someone will then sue our State Govt for compensation for failing to prevent the demonstrators waving upsetting placards at them, said person will then become minor celebrity on some reality TV show involving singing and dancing. Many memes will be made.
'Straya mate.
I'm not worried about Tyndall; they can handle themselves, I'm sure.
The thing I'm most concerned about now is that it WILL devolve into chaos thanks to people wanting to get attention "combating Westboro", and 97x (our rock station) encouraging the circus mentality. At this rate, I'm afraid someone is going to start a fight and we're all going to suffer legal problems for it.
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Crap, didn't those jerks hit Ronnie James Dio's funeral too?
Sorry to hear about the radio station issues. There seems to be one in every area. Whenever some WBC-lite guy would hit our local campus one station would send a guy specifically to agitate him, which was funny in some cases but it doesn't lend itself to managing the temper of large groups of angry people.
That's my question. They're doing this in 'Murica, for the love of the Gods! Where half the people probably have semi-automatics in the hands of a relative, if not themselves, and the Westboro twits are running around harrassing and upsetting people in the Police and the Military, amongst other groups ...
How come we haven't had a retired S.E.A.L. or a retired Police Officer working as a gas technician in their twilight years go over and 'fix' the problem with a faulty seal or something else?
The reason is ... the people the Westboro are attacking are the sort of folks who have often dedicated their lives to protecting civilians, whether or not they feel specific groups like the Westboro are deserving of them.
As much as we all might feel the Westboro are well and truly deserving of a Karmic Empowered Maximized Chain Lightning On A Cloudless Summer Day, sinking to the level that the Westboro twits are seemingly encouraging amongst their victims solves nothing in the long term, and in fact diminishes all the acts that our dead soldiers, police officers and others have made for their country.
The reason is ... the people the Westboro are attacking are the sort of folks who have often dedicated their lives to protecting civilians, whether or not they feel specific groups like the Westboro are deserving of them.
Pretty much this. They target people they think they can get to hit back, but never lethally. They avoid gangs and other groups known to inflict lethal harm on those they oppose - perhaps barbing them from a safe distance like over the internet, but almost never in person like they do the Everyday Joe.
Plain honest question from someone outside USA. I have never heard of that church outside this forums and find really sick that people as they as presented here. So, the question is... how that "church" still exists? Their activities seem really amoral and find strange they are still legal? They really seem a dangerous sect.
Either way, Tirisfal, you have all my support for what you want to do. Little more I can do, sorry.
They still exist because of free speech. Unlike some other countries (I know Canada for instance doesn't allow it, under legal bans on "hate speech" and similar things, and I'm pretty sure they've been banned in a few other countries) the US does not censor (most) activity or speech, no matter how vile; so nothing about the things they have to say is illegal*. Unpopular, highly disliked, and generally disdained by most everyone (heck, even the freakin' KKK hates Westboro - that takes talent), but still (barely) legal.
And Westboro is very, very careful to dance along the edge of the line of provocation and incitement without crossing it. They make a lot of their money by, as mentioned upthread, getting their opposition to make the first move then having very, very good lawyers.
Granted, that just further highlights how screwed up our judicial systems are, but there you go.
*=Bizarre as it sounds, there's one good thing to come out of WBC's nonsense. So long as they remain uncensored and allowed to exist, it shows that the basic premise of free speech is, at least on some level, still alive in this country. As soon as the government starts trying to block what they have to say, my worry is that it'll only be a matter of time until that censorship is allowed to spread to anything the party-in-power-at-the-time disagrees with.
I'd love to see how long they'd last in Australia, I suspect they'd get in one, maybe two protests. We are a pretty laid back nation, but people like these bring out our worst.
What, no tossing BBQ sauce on them and tossing them to a roving pack of dingoes?
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The Patriot Guard Riders came to my step-brother's funeral to shield us from the Westboro people. They rode their motorcycles as an escort between funeral home and cemetery. They also stood in a huge circle around both venues, each person holding the flagpole of one flag, and the outer top corner of the next person's flag, to create a protected area so we couldn't even see the Westboro folks out beyond them.
It was incredibly moving to realize that the Patriod Guard had traveled however far each of them needed to go, and given of their time to protect a soldier and his family.
The key points are:
* Don't interact with the "protesters" at all - just form a silent barrier.
* Flags, or something like the angel-wing sheets that someone above suggested, form a very effective barrier.
* Don't interact with the folks you're protecting, either. Just let them go on with their activities as much like normal as possible. (I think the Patriot Guard had one leader who coordinated with the funeral home, and they had a small number of people who formed a silent "corridor" when we entered and exited the building.)
And thanks for being willing to step up and help!
Plain honest question from someone outside USA. I have never heard of that church outside this forums and find really sick that people as they as presented here. So, the question is... how that "church" still exists? Their activities seem really amoral and find strange they are still legal?
America was set up as a coalition of independent states that were paranoid about the power of the federal government. To that end most of the constitution sets up what congress can do specifically and on top of that there was the bill of rights saying that the federal government absolutely can't do x,y, and z.
The biggest two are probably the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech: its a cultural as well as legal institution here that the government cannot ban a religion or stop people from talking. If you give the government the power to shut people up when its a good idea, they'll probably decide that their political opposition is what needs to be shut up.
There is enough material in the bible, past christian tradition, and current christian sentiment in the US (especially the very large and influential southern baptist tradition) for a religious objection to homosexuality to be real. There is also enough wackiness in some real American churches that their litigation scam could be a genuine protest: Personally I think it almost has to be real for at least some of the rank and filers walking the protest lines if not the folks staying at home (who are almost all members of the same family and lawyers)
Its just a side effect of our decision to put up with inanity like this and deal with it on an individual level rather than trusting the government with the ability to do something about it.
Something will put a stop to it eventually, in Darwin I trust.
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Its just a side effect of our decision to put up with inanity like this and deal with it on an individual level rather than trusting the government with the ability to do something about it.
And as I said in my last post, that's not power I'm ever going to be comfortable with our rulers having.
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Oddly, many countries manage to both preserve a robust public discourse (in some cases more so than ours) and ban stuff like this.Its just a side effect of our decision to put up with inanity like this and deal with it on an individual level rather than trusting the government with the ability to do something about it.And as I said in my last post, that's not power I'm ever going to be comfortable with our rulers having.
And many more don't. Why risk it? You're highly unlikely to have to ever deal with these bozos. They're not nearly the problem that their publicity makes it appear.