So, I've been looking at various classes, because it would be cool to make some sort of costumed crimefighter, whether he's a 'medieval fantasy' version, or he's been displaced here due to time travel, it seems like a fun idea. And I'm kind of in the Swashbuckler guy's camp, in that it would be cool to have a base class rather than just trying to multiclass all over the place, trying to hit every feat or 'power' that I'd like to have.
Anyway, here's the stuff I think a good, basic 'Vigilante class' should have:
Lots of bonuses to unarmed combat, or perhaps letting him choose weapons like clubs or slings, something that could conceivably be 'nonlethal'.
Access to a few of those exotic weapons, like bolas, or lassos, or boomerangs.
Let the player decide whether he wants to play a skulky, stealthy fighter(like The Question, or Batman), or the kind of hero who just runs into the fray and takes down rooms full of thugs(like Captain America, or Daredevil, or...Batman), or whatever.
Give him lots of intimidate, and lots of Willpower and Fortitude and Reflex.
If he gets high enough level, let him take a sidekick like a squire, perhaps treating the sidekick a bit like an animal companion mechanically.
And here's an idea, let the player make a more individualized vigilante, with options to choose a certain kind of symbol, or certain imagery, or certain themes to go along with their crimefighter. There's generally a reason people are more afraid of Batman than they are of Bob the Goon, even though Bob has a gun and is legitimately dangerous.
So, yeah. Any ideas/suggestions/etc?
SOME EDITS:
I kind of like the Urban Ranger's thing of building a rapport with a chosen neighborhood and community. I wonder if you could manage something like that with a whole city/village/etc.
Also, I imagine making a gun-based variant for this class could be viable, for those Punisher fans, and those who like their crimefighters to be a bit more 'grim'...
This thread was a rousing success.
Well as far as city based abilities, you look at the urban soul prc from races of destiny.
This thread was a rousing success.
Sometimes a post just gets lost in the works - no cause for alarm. I admit it's an intriguing idea - I like that you've identified the particular tropes you think should be part of the Base Class and that you realise there's many ways of being a vigilante.
I didn't disagree with any of it, though the urban rangers urban bound may not provide enough "juice" to power the class thematically. The Symbol as "source/focus" could provide a lot of modular packages, or one all encompassing mechanic that could be ported to any flavour.
Yo Toaster, maybe I'll do that sometime.
Waterwolf, thanks man. And yeah, that's what concerns me about the Urban Ranger. I mean, obviously they can handle themselves in a fight, but they don't seem to be able to dismantle a room of mooks like Batman, or even Moon Knight can.
That's the thing, though. Do we want to make this a totally self-sustaining badass, or do we want him to be a team player? Because I was thinking, maybe in lieu of high attack, maybe his bluff and social skills should be really important, and he should even have class features to basically spook dangerous threats, so that even if he's not any more dangerous than the rest of the party, he -seems- dangerous to the enemy.
But that's making a lot of presumptions.
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Well let's see - put simply - is he d10 HD anf Full BAB a la fighter/ranger/paladin or is he d8 HD and 3/4 BAB? Seeing as the latter two get spells and companions and... I don't see why not d10 and Full BAB. Vigilantes need to take and mete out punishment.
Then again the Inquisitor fits the trope and only has d8 and 3/4 BAB. (Maybe the Viilantw should be a spell-less Inquisitor Altwrnate Class...)
After that you can make the base class as modular as you want - with perhaps a core set of generic vigilante abilities and then a suite of options like Rogue Talents, Ninja Tricks or bonus feats etc. for skilling, stealth, investigations exotic weapons etc
Problem will be defining "generic vigilante" stuff - as your original post points out there are a lot of concepts in pop culture and achieving all of them with a base class is near impossible. That's why the Base needs to be generic and modular enough to sustain the gazillion archetypes that might follow. Some suggested baselines for the Vigilante:
- it seems to me the brutal unarmed/baton-club stuff always comes in handy,
- some skill focus feats to enhance style of Vigilantism - investigatory (Perception,Sense Motive), intimidatory (Intimidation!!), public hero (Diplomacy), erudite (Knowledge) etc...
- moar feats like Toughness and Save enhancers...
- the hero-symbol/focus/drive - I really like this one, but it eludes my grasp mechanically at the moment, nor can I whittle it down to one mechanic. I think this is has an awesome design-space potential - I see a package that might contain some buffs, some temporary
hit points, movement stuff, CMB/CMD, Inquisitor's Judgment-type stuff.
Ideally the base class might offer 3-5 samples of hero-symbol packages, and then archetypes would either build on
OR dispense with them entirely on a case by case basis.
That's all I got for now...
*
[Vigilante-Person]? ;p
I'm likin' it. I'm thinking the d10 and full BAB. These guys Martials, after all.
I like all that stuff, but I do think they should also have really great Will saves, unusually for a Martial class. While I won't pretend that Cap's shield or Batman's karate can match fireballs shot from space, I do like their advantage being that they can't just be Dominated or Magic'd as easily as others.
SELF EDIT: That's probably what you meant by Save Enhancers. I'm so smart.
Maybe the symbolism thing, we partially tie it into crafting. You know, equipment crafting, and all that. After Bruce Wayne decided he wanted to be Batman, -then- he started making the Batarangs and the gliding cape and the whatnot with the thingamajig.
As a class, I think you're looking mostly at a combination of either urban range or rogue and monk abilities, but it sounds like you want a very martial bent.
When I played a Batman-esque swashbuckler I just did it as a rogue/paladin, but that was in 3.5, but I didn't fight unarmed, which in d20 usually requires a dedicated class to make viable. In Pathfinder I would probably make the same character as a ninja/paladin.
The version I wrote up as a test of my rogue revision ended up as a Monk (Martial Artist)/Rogue (Thug) 11. Let me see what I can type up.
LG Human Male
Str 15
Dex 22 (+2 level, +4 belt)
Con 18 (+1 level, +4 belt)
Int 18 (+2 human, +1 level)
Wis 14
Cha 12
FEATS
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Enforcer
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes
WF (Unarmed Strike)
Weapon Finesse
Boar Style
Dazzling Display
Gory Finish
Shatter Defenses
Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
ROGUE TALENTS (the revision has Int or Cha based grit as the gunslinger to fuel rogue talents, Batman would be Int-based)
Bully (gain half sneak attack dice against targets suffering from a fear condition)
Skill Adept (Intimidate) (spend a point of cunning to roll two dice and take better on any Intimidate roll)
Shadow Magic (spend a cunning for ninja's Vanish trick)
Cunning Resistance (spend a cunning for +Int to all saves for a round as an immediate)
Vicious Ambush (when coming out of invisibility or stealth, all attacks are sneak attacks rather than just the first, costs 1 cunning to use, advanced talent)
Redirect Attack (spend 1 cunning to attempt to redirect an attack at another target in their melee range)
EQUIPMENT
Cloak of the Bat, Greater (+10 to Stealth and Fly, +5 resistance bonus, no polymorph effect)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 (+2 agility) (bat insignia on chest)
+5 Brawling Light Fortification Leather Armor
Belt of Physical Might (+4 Dex/Con) + Handy Haversack (in belt form)
The goal here was that in a straight fight against an opponent of his level that was immune to fear, he was in trouble. He specialized in attacking from ambush, which triggered Gory Finish against all the other mooks, at which point they were going to be intimidated, and thus he could beat them up effectively. He had a number of ways to inflict fear conditions (Enforcer, Gory Finish, Dazzling Display, Boar Style, the Intimidate skill). Once you were afraid of him he could beat you up with a flurry of blows enhanced by sneak attack damage due to Bully. If he got overwhelmed he could bug out and start the whole thing over again by an attack from the shadows.
That's an interesting Batman build, actually. I like the emphasis on trickery and tactics.
I want to see the game where you played as him, honestly.