Goblin Squad Member
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I was talking to my fellow guildies the other night. We were looking at information about the games skill system and the class archetypes, when one of us suddenly mentioned it seemed horribly broken.
From the information we read, it seems as though we can train in any class, any stat and when we max out in one we can move onto the next.
Great in theory! Once my paladin has achieved the highest state of enlightenment it makes sense for him to become a fighter to further improve his sword play, so he may better fight in his gods name.
But what if I went with something akin to a monk tank and cleric healing hybrid? Suddenly I'd have a character capable of dodging and tanking naked with insane counters. And with the cleric benefits he could wear heavier armor if he needed it and his healing spells would be insane. Suddenly we have two of the most difficult to kill types in PvP rolled into one.
And what is to say it stops there? Why not go for a even tankier class next? Or go with heavy DPS so now your not only immortal but you also hit like a truck!
Me and my friends have all seen this before and the thought terrified us. So in a attempt to calm our nerves we hit the internet for answers, but no official words to calm us was found.
So is there any answers out there as to how Pathfinder would avoid this? Do you have a suggestion on how to solve the problem?
Personally I'd limit the player to two classes. They can train in more but only two can be active at one time and you can only have 20 levels (going by the PnP system) spread across both classes, so you can't max out in both.
I think the player should be allowed to change class once a day. Allowing you to train and experience other classes, while not abusing the game by changing class back and forth in a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have a finite number of slots in which to equip skills, for one. So your monk cleric might have to choose between those lovely monk AC bonuses or the ability to channel. You could toss in some sorc casting for extra dps, but you won't be doing it nearly as well as someone focused on it. Every ability you slot has an opportunity cost in all the other things that could go in that slot that you now don't have room for.
The gear you equip has keywords. The skills you equip will have keywords. You will have to diversify your equipped gear if you want to have all the keywords for your skills. Which means that instead of half your gear augmenting a given skill, it might only be one or two pieces, which weakens the effectiveness of the skills.
Also, you should abandon the idea of classes. PFO does not have classes. So the idea of limiting someone to two "classes" or only allowing one "class" change per day isn't really compatible. THere are also no levels. So you're not spreading 20 "levels" across your classes.
Take a look at EVE or The Secret World for good depictions of classless, levelless games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Moridian, I highly recommend you read the following blog posts to get a better feel for how the devs already intend to address some of the issues you bring up:
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another thing to consider. GW is planning a progression of 2.5 years to max a PC in one "path" (used instead of class). That is certainly a long haul to achieve your PC mixtures at the highest levels that you describe. Maxing lvls in 3 "paths will take around 7.5 years. That kind of commitment to the game should give you some neat options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It won't be possible to have one character do everything at once in the way you suggest, as there are several factors that are limiting the maximum number of abilities that can be slotted at once.
First of all, there is time as a limiting factor. Getting the equivalent of "Max level" in a class should take approximately two and a half years, and will likely require you to complete some epic goals in game to do so beyond just using your accumulated XP over time. An example given by Ryan in an interview was if you want to be a powerful cleric then you would need to visit the hidden grave stones of several high level clerics that are hidden throughout the river kingdoms.
Secondly, while you can learn the skills of any class, you can only have six active skills slotted at any time, one class ability slot, and two refresh/utility slots. While having the ability to choose from all class skills is good, actually being able to use them all at once will not happen. What they will do is allow you the versatility to reconfigure your active skills to change roles as needed.
Third, skills are not the gate to more powerful abilities, gear is. If you have the sills slotted to use an attack with 27 keywords enhancing damage but are using a tier one weapon with 2 keywords on it, it's not going to do that much damage. If your weapon is powerful enough to actually use all those skills, it's going to be VERY expensive to create and thread, so you are putting all your other items at risk to use it.
Fourth, the hp difference between a newbie and a max level character will likely be 400 hp for the newbie and 2000 hp for the vet. A group of 4 newbies would be challenge for even the most powerful veteran, and a group of 10 newbies could easily overwhelm a lone vet, regardless of the power difference.
It's an elegant system, and will allow long time players to become very versatile, but will avoid the demigod problem you are suggesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To add to Dario's post, you also have to consider the time involved. it will take 2ish years of real time to max out 1 "class" and then branching out will take additional time. So by the time you max out monk/cleric/pally/sorc your looking at atleast 5-7 years (assuming there are skills shared between them, lowering the time to max out the other classes beyond the first.) I am prolly low balling the number but you get the point.
As Dario said, despite having maxed out every class/skill in the game, there is limits to the gear (in the form of slots for gear and keywords on said gear) and the number of active skills. For example, they have said that for weapons, you will have keywords that are used in different types of attacks. If you don't have the key word, you don't have that attack.
Also, there is a system in place for pvp combat that lessens then separation between new "level 1" characters from older more experienced characters. HP won't be hugely different (I think it was mentioned starting at 400 and maxing at 4k??) and everyone will alwaysbe able to hit everyone else. So don't think of WOW or other MMO's where a lvl 85 can 1 shot a lvl 1 without even attacking. In fact, there will be very minimal and very situational 1 shotting in PFO.
All in all, while I understand you and your guildies fear, I personally believe it will be/is being addressed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to more or less sum the above:
1. Vast range of skills with time-based skill-progression in real-time (mod: by stats fixed at creation?)
2. Total time to a max in one path training consecutively ~2.5yrs with skill-training x1 at a time.
3. Limited slots for skills based on limited ability to carry gear specific to skill-trees.
4. The slope of skill training from 0-20 is sharp increase at beginning then levels and is not nearly as high as other mmorpgs.
5. So diversity in total skills accumulated over time per char. as opposed to stacking power on top each subsequent maximizing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to more or less sum the above:
1. Vast range of skills with time-based skill-progression in real-time (mod: by stats fixed at creation?)
Nope, that idea was reassessed. The last I saw on it, the primary function of stats are to serve as a gating mechanic for advanced skills, and will be increased by training in skills relevant to the stat.
Ex. Each Dex-based skill you train gives you +1 to the stat. You must have at least 45 in Dex in order to train Advanced Dex Skill #47.