Given the chance would you play (A)The bandit who is skilled at getting the most loot they can from players. (B)Skilled at killing other players and looting what you can.
Bandit (A) has leveled "bandit" skills
View the Goods-Can now see what cargo the merchant is transporting, Can tell what is a fair offer for S.A.D,
If the merchant is a decoy, If the cargo is worth the risk.
Can set a better ambush- Slow the merchants means of escape, set hard cover points for archers, place traps/caltrops for merchant guards.
Upgrade the bandit hideout-larger area of operations, harder to spot, Hold more resources/loot.
And best of all-Can loot more from the merchant and get back to there hideout faster.
The downside is that you have poor combat skills, You will need superior numbers to take down merchants and there guards. (But bandits don't like to fight fair anyway).
Bandit (B) is just a PvP player who plays at being a bandit.
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Interesting, I think there are a few different flags: I think it is contextual:
Outlaw (Chaotic)
The Outlaw flag is for players who want to rob other players, commit acts of banditry, etc. It can be used by chaotic evil players to be brigands, or by chaotic good players to be Robin Hood–style robbers. Outlaws use a new mechanic we are working on developing called stand and deliver, which allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window. If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation.
Economically and Alignment/Reputation highest return for lowest risk of loss: IE in SAD: Highest SAD demand for the target to still accept it. This is complicated by context: IE depending on the target's goals and defences and if the bandit and target have a history dealings.
Over time the best strategy is towards reciprocity ie not a zero-sum relationship but a "win-win". So a bandit running a business would motivate towards or if "no deal" move to an area with less defences. This is not the case if the bandits are hired to disrupt where zero-sum is exactly what they want with the targets - unless the target can "top" the original offer!
So it seems:
1. SAD: offer highest return that is still likely to be accepted.
2. SAD area with lower defence than the bandits can reliably muster to optimise SAD
3. History leads to reciprocity to lower 1.
4. Competition from other bandits lowers 1.
5. 2. might change if with 4. there is too much bandit "heat" for the hex.
6. 1. might be reversed if instead of banditry the brigand flag is achieved ie it seems robbery is replaced by terrorism for strategic reasons/sponsorship?
I think PvP will be high if Bandit career is taken and it seems to be one-step ahead of the targets/law demanding?
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Nine Moons: So you mean a bandit might have to choose between "bandit skills" and "combat skills"? I don't know about the tabletop game but a skill called "View the goods" sounds like too specialized a skill for an MMORPG imo. As would, I think, an "appraise" skill that lets you estimate the value of items. Concerning the ambush skills you mention, snare- and root abilities are typically very useful in MMO combat...
What I'm getting to is that I don't think the game will necessarily have a set of "bandit skills" that would be necessary to do banditry "in a proper way", of the kind that they would gimp combat ability.
Thinking of a more non-combat role for bandits. most players will take one of the common archtypes Ie: warrior,mage,rogue,ect. other players will take a non-combat role Ie: Crafter type,resource gather,town management. why not put bandits in with the resource gather types-bandits gather resources by killing and looting players.
Nine Moons: So you mean a bandit might have to choose between "bandit skills" and "combat skills"? I don't know about the tabletop game but a skill called "View the goods" sounds like too specialized a skill for an MMORPG imo. As would, I think, an "appraise" skill that lets you estimate the value of items. Concerning the ambush skills you mention, snare- and root abilities are typically very useful in MMO combat...
What I'm getting to is that I don't think the game will necessarily have a set of "bandit skills" that would be necessary to do banditry "in a proper way", of the kind that they would gimp combat ability.
I would very much like bandits to choose between a combat role or resource role, I see no reason why a bandit who has chosen to take the resource path could not take some combat skills, they will be needed to kill other players to get the loot, but they don't need to be fully PvP specked and we know they will be.Bandits keep on telling us its all about robbing the rich merchants and not PvP, so let then specalize in being a bandit not PvP.
"View the goods" not a skill as such, but yes appraise would work well.
No reason to use snare- and root abilities,but block the road with logs ect.
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Banditry will probably be about both robbery and PvP. Bandit bands will likely specialize abilities per person, giving a range of skills. A lone Bandit, choosing between the two, seems like a situation that will only occur at the beginning of a Bandit's career.
That being said, few people will take a SAD seriously from someone who is incapable of backing their polite request up with violence.
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It is possible that playing other MMOs has limited my imagination but I can't see why a bandit would go for anything else than combat abilities.
As I understand it, a bandit can prompt other players to pay, refusal can lead to the bandit attacking them. As a traveller, why would I feel more like parting with goods or money if the road was barricaded? Will that barricade decrease my chances of surviving the encounter in case I choose not to pay? If the bandit has to give up ability "power attack" to get ability "obstruct terrain" in order to block the road, then I would actually feel more inclined to take my chances and fight the road-blocking bandit since he has gimped his combat ability.
I think that combat effectiveness will be a bandit's greatest asset. Choosing not to pay a bandit will be a gamble, do I give some or risk losing it all? If this bandit is well known in the community as a great PvPer then I should probably pay.
Oh, and the appraise ability: in a player based economy, I think it would be very hard for the system be able to tell you what items are worth. Plus since it's a game you can ask your friends, or find similar information on the internet.
I might be looking at this the wrong way and I'm definitely not saying that I'm against "banditry skills". It's just, if I were to play a bandit I can't see how I would prioritize anything other than stuff that helps me kill other players (and make a getaway before their friends catch me). If there is a FUN way to introduce USEFUL specialized banditry skills and abilities in the game I am all for it.
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Of course the great question is within the context of an appraise skill, "where" is the value calculated based off of? I'd imagine there will be no shortage of merchants lets say refined adamantium from a city where it is 100/lb, to a city where it is 140/lb. Due to differences in proximity to adamantium mines.
Bandit attacks merchant roughly in the middle of such. Does the appraise skill go off global? The average of cities near the hideout, the point of origin, the destination?
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To more directly answer the OP: ALL those skills sound desirable. I one bandit has some, hopefully other bandits will have the others? Overall a strong and extensive suite of bandit skills sounds very welcome for a successful "job"!
Bandit Career appears highly driven by economics it seems to me as a sort of middleman to the processes of:
1. Frequency of trade and value
2. Ratio of bandits to 1.
3. Cat and mouse: between SAD, Guards price fluctuating according to bandits and wars...
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I might be looking at this the wrong way and I'm definitely not saying that I'm against "banditry skills". It's just, if I were to play a bandit I can't see how I would prioritize anything other than stuff that helps me kill other players (and make a getaway before their friends catch me). If there is a FUN way to introduce USEFUL specialized banditry skills and abilities in the game I am all for it.
You definitely don't want to overlook the benefits of us having hideouts, or even just SADs. If I had to choose between upgraded sword skills or upgraded hideout skills, I think I'd choose the latter. I only need to fight if a merchant refused, but I'll want to hide either way. Plus, I think that hideouts will give some variation of Appraise.
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You definitely don't want to overlook the benefits of us having hideouts, or even just SADs. If I had to choose between upgraded sword skills or upgraded hideout skills, I think I'd choose the latter. I only need to fight if a merchant refused, but I'll want to hide either way. Plus, I think that hideouts will give some variation of Appraise.
I did not know about hideouts, must have missed registering that part of the blog upon reading. In case there are skills that tie into the usefulness of the hideout that would certainly be an example of useful specialized banditry skills. Stand and delivers, as they are described in the blog, sound like simple "pay this much or we will fight" prompts, I don't see how skills would have anything to do with it.
The most common encounter with bandits wont be a one on one. Bandits will have the advantage of numbers, they don't need to be good at combat they have you out numbered and no wear to run.
They wont be able to get a cash value but the general amount of cargo. If the merchant refuses s.a.d and they have to kill and loot the merchant for his cargo they only get a fraction (say 10%)of the cargo, its good to know how much to ask for.
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They wont be able to get a cash value but the general amount of cargo. If the merchant refuses s.a.d and they have to kill and loot the merchant for his cargo they only get a fraction (say 10%)of the cargo, its good to know how much to ask for.
That's interesting, I was under the impression that everything that hasn't been threaded can be looted after player death but I just recently started following this game. What happens to the rest of the items? They get deleted? If the victim gets to keep them then they might as well always refuse stand and delivers.
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There are no classical delimitations between classes in PFO: If a player aspires to banditry it is merely a matter of is or her priorities which skills they learn when, in what order. They might go combat first hoping it improves their survivability or they might go perception first hoping it affords them expensive combat skills later, but either way they will likely acquire both... and more, eventually.
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They wont be able to get a cash value but the general amount of cargo. If the merchant refuses s.a.d and they have to kill and loot the merchant for his cargo they only get a fraction (say 10%)of the cargo, its good to know how much to ask for.That's interesting, I was under the impression that everything that hasn't been threaded can be looted after player death but I just recently started following this game. What happens to the rest of the items? They get deleted? If the victim gets to keep them then they might as well always refuse stand and delivers.
You die. Any threaded items come with you when you respawn.
Scenario A) You reclaim your body before it is looted. You recover everything.
Scenario B) Someone else loots your body. They get some portion of the items that remain on your body, and the rest are destroyed.
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Banditry will probably be about both robbery and PvP. Bandit bands will likely specialize abilities per person, giving a range of skills. A lone Bandit, choosing between the two, seems like a situation that will only occur at the beginning of a Bandit's career.
That being said, few people will take a SAD seriously from someone who is incapable of backing their polite request up with violence.
That is where those few (such as myself) who go the more combat style (in my case assassin) comes in to support my less combat oriented companions. They sad, I'm the enforcement.
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That is where those few (such as myself) who go the more combat style (in my case assassin) comes in to support my less combat oriented companions. They sad, I'm the enforcement.Banditry will probably be about both robbery and PvP. Bandit bands will likely specialize abilities per person, giving a range of skills. A lone Bandit, choosing between the two, seems like a situation that will only occur at the beginning of a Bandit's career.
That being said, few people will take a SAD seriously from someone who is incapable of backing their polite request up with violence.
Ah, teamwork. That's what it's all about.
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I like the idea of using appraise and other "non-combat" skills as a bandit. If you compare to TT, I view the bandit as a form of rogue and rogues are a skill-based class, having a wide variety of skills available to them. They are ok in combat, mainly requiring the strategic placement to use sneak attack, but mainly there for the skills. If we follow the same concept in PFO, I think it will add some fun and enjoyment to those playing that role, and also stays with the idea of groups working together. On the "good" side, you have the merchant (non-combat) and hired guards (combat focused) and the flip side would be the face man (non combat) and the enforcers. (combat focused) Everyone has a role and a place.
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They wont be able to get a cash value but the general amount of cargo. If the merchant refuses s.a.d and they have to kill and loot the merchant for his cargo they only get a fraction (say 10%)of the cargo, its good to know how much to ask for.That's interesting, I was under the impression that everything that hasn't been threaded can be looted after player death but I just recently started following this game. What happens to the rest of the items? They get deleted? If the victim gets to keep them then they might as well always refuse stand and delivers.
When someone loots your husk, they'll have their pick of your unthreaded items, but they'll only be able to take a relatively small number (possibly based on their Skills & Abilities). All the rest will be destroyed.
My expectation is that Cargo will be treated as a special case. You'll probably transport it in Wagons, and Bandits who gain access to them will only be able to take a controlled amount.
7. It takes longer to setup and gather resources than to steal them after they have been gathered.Mostly true, and a key part of the risk vs. reward that encourages you to try for the rare resources in dangerous territory precisely because if you do get them to market, they'll be worth more. Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest, and have to balance their own risk vs. reward on properly identifying their targets and making sure they continue to have gatherers to fleece. To a certain extent this should reach a natural equilibrium; it's not going to be much more fun for bandits to sit in a bush all day hoping a high-value, low-defense target happens by. If an area becomes unprofitable to gather at due to banditry, gatherers will stop coming, the bandits will get bored and some of them will leave, and it will eventually become a risky but not hopeless place to gather again.
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As mentioned in my wagon thread, I'm hoping wagons will be a bit more optional--and thus that anything in a wagon (or perhaps in a special optional wagon that holds more items) can be looted without trouble. It would be a calculated risk.
I'd prefer to be something that steals, but hides his true identity. From everyone. In character and out.
An elven arcane trickster who uses alter self to become a female Orc every time he does something illegal. Deep cover/ alter ego kind of thing.
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@NineMoons
I believe you should consider the possibility that bandits will use a "combined arms" approach, or what I would refer to as multi-flagging in PFO.
I could see a bandit group, running Outlaw, Assassin and Traveler flags. Obviously, Outlaws to initiate the SAD. If the SAD is not accepted, then the Outlaws attack, but hold off a bit to let the Assassins come in to finish off the poor bastids. Then when the combat is over, our own Traveler flagged bandits roll in and haul off the loot.
If this all works as planned, putting Murphy's Law aside, all reputation and alignment shifts will go appropriately and beneficially to the proper individuals.
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@NineMoons
I believe you should consider the possibility that bandits will use a "combined arms" approach, or what I would refer to as multi-flagging in PFO.
I could see a bandit group, running Outlaw, Assassin and Traveler flags. Obviously, Outlaws to initiate the SAD. If the SAD is not accepted, then the Outlaws attack, but hold off a bit to let the Assassins come in to finish off the poor bastids. Then when the combat is over, our own Traveler flagged bandits roll in and haul off the loot.
If this all works as planned, putting Murphy's Law aside, all reputation and alignment shifts will go appropriately and beneficially to the proper individuals.
A victim might think twice if he is getting "you are being observed" messages while offered a SAD. ;)
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from another thread, I did not want to hijack...
That is how I felt. He made it sound like some evil guys won't be so bad to have around. They will actually be fun to interact with. Bluddwolf is kind of that way also. He is just more....in your face I guess. I do respect him and his "bad" guy too though.
PFO shaping up to be a fun place to spend your free time. =D
This is a very fine compliment, and I thank you. I am truly enjoying my role, and if it is coming off as "in your face", I know I'm doing it well.
I see Bandits as being more adept at intimidation and violence than your traditional D&D thief.
As for your own, well deserved compliment, I have enjoyed our discussions and I'm quite impressed how far you have come around to the realities that banditry will bring to bear on you and your own goals. But instead of shrinking from the challenge, you have been brain storming idea after idea on how to circumvent or thwart our scourge.
I can not wait to encounter you in-game. I hope we meet for the first time in a tavern, and I will buy you a drink. But, don't mind that strange feeling that you might have, that you are being observed....that is just a figment of your imagination.
If we should meet on the road, I shall tip my hat to you, or perhaps raise my hood (not sure which I will have?). I will of course, take note of your cargo for future reference.
If we should meet in the wilderness, well you just might be SOL! But, perhaps I will be gentle for your first time... that is, if I can keep my rapid pack in line? You have not met Longstreet or Panama Jack yet. They are two of my oldest friends, both chaotic evil as they come, both can barely stand each other and yet have been in the same guild since 2002! Those two would hit -20,000 Rep and not give a damn. Just the sort of mates I like to have in my company.
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@Bluddwolf
I do so appreciate the compliments delivered with the unsubtle threats. You are a master at talking smack. I can't wait to engage you in-game. I am sure that you will be victorious sometimes, as will I the other. I am also fairly certain that no matter who wins, we will both go away bloody or deceased. That is what will make it all the more exciting. No?
Seriously though, we should have some great fun in-game. :)
To get any sort of profitable outcome bandits will need more than one tactic, Brute force and superior numbers may win the day, But i want cash,bulk cash. The larger the bandit force the smaller the share.
If i can use other skills to rob merchants with a smaller force why not.
Skills such as disguise,bluff,intimidate,set traps,stealth,ventriloquism,illusions ect.
As a bandit i can set the place of the ambush, so why set dead-falls to block the road(set traps),Place some target dummies with crossbows(disguise/illusions)that can fire a warning shot(set traps), ventriloquism can improve the disguise of the "crossbow men".
Once more i use disguise to make my self look like the infamous Bluddwolf(striking terror in any merchant).
The S.A.D offer is laced with intimidate and bluff. The other bandits can use stealth to move from place to place unseen,only to be seen when we want to be seen(makes the group seem bigger).
We may be few, but we seem to be many.
If for some reason things go wrong "That's not Bluddwolf,It's that slaver b!&@@ Ninemoons"....Well we lose, and the merchant wins.
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As a bandit i can set the place of the ambush, so why set dead-falls to block the road(set traps),Place some target dummies with crossbows(disguise/illusions)that can fire a warning shot(set traps), ventriloquism can improve the disguise of the "crossbow men".
Once more i use disguise to make my self look like the infamous Bluddwolf(striking terror in any merchant).
The S.A.D offer is laced with intimidate and bluff. The other bandits can use stealth to move from place to place unseen,only to be seen when we want to be seen(makes the group seem bigger).
We may be few, but we seem to be many.
I don't see how this would work in an MMO. In a PnP game or against NPCs sure, and it sounds like fun too but how would all of that work against another player?
The dummies would have to look like other players, all of them with a randomized appearance and wearing different gear. They also have to behave like players (people move around their characters in a quite different manner to NPC movement in all MMOs I played).Intimidate/bluff could be implemented to work against NPCs but as I understand it SAD is going to work through volition, the target gets a choice of yes or no and can choose freely to accept or reject the SAD. If the game rolls hidden dice and decides for them if they accept or not that replaces an interesting mechanic with a worse one (in my own opinion). If there is a limit to how much the bandit can ask for that can be increased with intimidate that would also be bad (again, IMO) because it removes the interesting aspect of guessing how big a sum the bandit can get away with.
The road blockade: if it increases the chance of pulling travellers out of fast travel into an ambush it could work. But the role it would play during the ambush itself? I don't see it.
Something not mentioned in your above post but that I have also thought about: inspect cargo/backpack. Ok, if the bandit knows how much stuff the victim carries then he better knows how much ransom he could ask for but this would pretty much have to be all-or-nothing, knowing some but not all of the stuff the victim has does not help the bandit (unless the game tells you that the items you see constitute, say 25% of the total number of items, in which case it is almost as good as a full success). I suppose increased skill level could increase the chance for a successful inspection. Maybe I can see a skill like this being fun, not sure yet.
I just realized it might look like I am specifically picking on your posts NineMoons but it's not like that. I just don't see how these things would work against other players to persuade them to give up their money rather than take their chances in combat. As I said before, I have played quite a few MMOs so my thinking may be flawed from preconceptions about what a game can and can't do but I believe that it's very hard to fool players into thinking that NPCs are other players or vice versa.
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@Ninemoons While your ideas sound very fun and are totally legit in PFRPG rules, they are not likely in PFO because of the great deal of time that would be required to implement. Every clever bandit trick would require a viable target counter trick coded into the whole.
@Wurner The Bandit Hideout will give info on a target's cargo. How much or how little has not been well defined. I do agree with you. A bandit is better served by combat skills than not.
@Klokan IMO most targets will be armed, IMO, for the reasons detailed below.
Lets break this down a little. There will likely evolve only 2 types of targets for bandits.
Risky Runners These target types will move goods alone or in groups with little or no protection. Hoping to just squeak by. They will be the bandit's preferred targets. Most of these targets will accept SADs. The bandits will need only a few combat skills or a few men with good skills to be successful here. Very high risk vs. very high reward (low investment). These target types are, IMO, gamblers and fools.
Insured Runners These target types will travel alone or in groups with a lot of protection. The bandit will have to make more choices as to relative strengths. These targets will likely fight. Why hire guards or bring muscle if not to fight? Bandits will need a lot of combatants or a few with a lot of skills to defeat these targets. Low risk vs. high reward (high investment). Most likely choice IMO.
In order to do well, bandits will need to be able to try at both types of targets. To have the most successes against all targets they will need to be fairly combat focused.
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Now, what are the risks of being a bandit if you just prey on unarmed targets? Well, if you can't tell the haulers apart from a band of knights then you will die a lot
"hand all ya gold gold over merchant scum and we might let ya live....Oh your not a merchant"
I would pay to see that lol
At the end of the day it still comes down to who has the largest group, but people can be very cunning and can come up with some very interesting ways to work around problems...
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All I can think is:
Bandit: [robbing a couple on a floating wagon] You gonna give us what's due us and every damn thing else on that boat. And I think maybe you gonna give me a little one-on-one time with the misses.
Jayne: Oh, I think you might wanna reconsider that last part. See, I married me a powerful ugly creature.
Mal: [in disguise in a dress and large bonnet] How can you say that? How can you shame me in front of new people?
Jayne: If I could make you purtier, I would.
Mal: [gasps] You are not the man I met a year ago.
[Mal and Jayne pull their guns on the unsuspecting bandits]
Mal: Now think real hard. You've been birddoggin' this township a while now. They wouldn't mind a corpse of you. Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
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Very high risk vs. very high reward (low investment). These target types are, IMO, gamblers and fools.Don't underestimate the prevalence of gamblers and fools! We know from EVE that these people aren't that uncommon.
Watch this video from EVE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txSJqCQUsSs
They tried to transport things through low security areas by travelling in hard to find places. An extremely lucrative endeavor and as long as none manages to scan you down in time it is safe. Attacking people armed to the teeth isn't worth it most of the time. Attacking people who assumes that their way of travel is safe is where you can hit the jackpot.
Not sure if I comprehend. Are you saying targets gambling is best or bandits hitting gambling targets is best? Who gets the jackpot?
Seems to me, if targets gamble and lose, they lose a lot. I f bandits gamble and lose, they lose little or nothing.
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Another thing to consider, or be reminded of, Bandits are not a class in PFO (like they are in PFRPG). Bandits are a profession in PFO. We will have a wide variety of skills and draw upon several class-like builds.
There could be virtually no difference in skill between a Barbarian and a Bandit. There could be virtually no skill difference between a Bandit and a Cleric. In a classless game, it is not what skills we have, that define us, it is what we do with our skills that does.
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Not sure if I comprehend. Are you saying targets gambling is best or bandits hitting gambling targets is best? Who gets the jackpot?Seems to me, if targets gamble and lose, they lose a lot. I f bandits gamble and lose, they lose little or nothing.
Bandits gamble with their time, each minute they are not getting any prey is a minute wasted. But once in a while bandits hit the jackpot and gets rich. Traders gambles with risk, each time they don't get caught they earn a lot of money but once in a while they lose even more due to bandits.
So yes to both of your questions. Traders earn the most while gambling which is why there will be a lot of gambling traders. Bandits earn the most when targeting these gambling traders, so that is what they will do.
The bolded part is troubling. Are you one of those rare individuals that wins more than loses when gambling? For the overwhelmingly vast percentage, gamblers lose more than they win. Now this can be modified by your actual odds but I am talking in general, with odds slightly or greater against you.
Let's take Bluddwolf for example. He seems to be used most often currently as an example of an avowed bandit. Okay, so Bluddwolf seems like a reasonable business type guy (a little strange at times but which of us aren't =P). Now, being reasonable, Bluddwolf might let you set up a deal with his band that is less costly than hiring guards. That tips odds in your favor for profit as long as you only transport in his area of influence. He may even contract to protect you outside that area, but now your costs have gone up.
Anywhere outside of a reasonable bandit's area, you are taking a bigger risk. The odds are climbing against you. What if you pass through several areas with no agreements and get SAD 3 times? I will bet that you have lost big time. The loss of a whole caravan of goods is likely to hurt you financially very badly. Would take more than a couple of lucrative trips to make it up.
To me the map is too small to gamble valuable cargo on the chance that I "might" get lucky and get through without guards.
Also, there are only 24 hours in a day. A smart bandit will make use of his time actively seeking targets. Not just waiting for unguarded but going for each that he thinks he can intimidate/beat.
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All I can think is:
Bandit: [robbing a couple on a floating wagon] You gonna give us what's due us and every damn thing else on that boat. And I think maybe you gonna give me a little one-on-one time with the misses.
Jayne: Oh, I think you might wanna reconsider that last part. See, I married me a powerful ugly creature.
Mal: [in disguise in a dress and large bonnet] How can you say that? How can you shame me in front of new people?
Jayne: If I could make you purtier, I would.
Mal: [gasps] You are not the man I met a year ago.
[Mal and Jayne pull their guns on the unsuspecting bandits]
Mal: Now think real hard. You've been birddoggin' this township a while now. They wouldn't mind a corpse of you. Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
If such a scene could be played out in PFO my happiness would know no bounds!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's take Bluddwolf for example. He seems to be used most often currently as an example of an avowed bandit. Okay, so Bluddwolf seems like a reasonable business type guy (a little strange at times but which of us aren't =P). Now, being reasonable, Bluddwolf might let you set up a deal with his band that is less costly than hiring guards. That tips odds in your favor for profit as long as you only transport in his area of influence. He may even contract to protect you outside that area, but now your costs have gone up.Anywhere outside of a reasonable bandit's area, you are taking a bigger risk. The odds are climbing against you. What if you pass through several areas with no agreements and get SAD 3 times? I will bet that you have lost big time. The loss of a whole caravan of goods is likely to hurt you financially very badly. Would take more than a couple of lucrative trips to make it up....
Bringslite is quite correct on this scenario, with one exception, there can't be 3 SADs during one trip. Any merchant or gatherer who has accepted the terms of a SAD, will fly a marker that tells all he/she has been victimized already. This marker or flag will last for 20 minutes, long enough to fast travel to safety. Any bandits attacking during this flag, will receive either no alignment or reputation benefits, or perhaps even gain penalties instead.
My issue with this system is the potential for the "1 Copper Piece SAD". This exploit would bestow the victim flag based on a bare minimum sad offer, and one likely issues by a CC mate or an alternate character of the merchant.
I hope when the whole process of SADs and Banditry is fleshed out by the Devs, that potential exploit is addressed.
Back to the post by Bringslite.....
Yes it would be to our mutual advantage to "negotiate" fair SAD costs with a few, select, merchants. But, on occasion, there will be those few that a message will have to be sent, in the clash of arms and the spilling of blood. SADs will only be accepted if it is generally known that bandits will slaughter those that are a little too greedy for their own good.
We also have to test ourselves, hone our skills, in combat. This will mean that some merchants with guards, will be attacked without a reasonable SAD offer being made.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Over time the best strategy is towards reciprocity ie not a zero-sum relationship but a "win-win".
Losing less is not a win. There is no "win" case for a victim of banditry (unless they defeat the bandits in combat, but then they're not actually victims :)
And there will be more for those on the receiving end of a SAD to weigh than their momentary loss - how much will they strengthen the bandits by giving in to a SAD demand, compared to what the bandits might gain from looting their husk? Is the short-term lesser loss of "feeding of the trolls" in a traveller's long-term interest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There you go. Even more risk on your gamble of going unprotected.
If this was based on some of my comments, I think you may have missed my point. An unprotected merchant would more likely get a SAD offer, and a more reasonable one because little would be gained from combat.
If we came across a merchant with some guard protection, we would still offer a SAD. One a little higher, because the cargo is probably a bit more valuable. We would also not be too upset if they chose to fight, because combat will be valuable practice and fun.
On the subject of moderate or heavy guard, we would have to take those situations on a case by case decision. Risk vs. reward will always be a major part of our decision making process. This is no different than the decision the merchant must make, basically asking him/herself "How much do I spend on guards? What is the chance I run into bandits? What is the chance that I spent more on guards than a likely SAD would have cost me?"
The gamble is not only on having too few guards, but also on too many.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf Actually, I did not miss your point. I was trying to make a point to someone else. That point and the point he's countering are so mixed up now that the value, to me, of continuing that debate has diminished greatly. Nor is the value, to me, worth unraveling to anyone anymore. :)
From a bandits points of view whats is a fair S.A.D offer, Are you looking at cash,cargo or some other object of value?. were do you expect to pull the mystic number from? or do you let the merchant come up with the offer?
I can see how the merchants can come up with a figure that they are willing to pay-they know what they expect to make from the sale of there cargo.