[Kingdom Building] First Town(s) - best startplace(s)?

[Der Origami Mann]

Where is the "best" place to build the first town(s)?

I have read the Overlord´s Guide to Kingdom Building and the most of the Threads here about building a city in Kingmaker campagne. But I am stil not sure, where we should build our first city. I hope you can help me or give me some more hints and ideas or could tell me where (and why) you build your first town(s).

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Our Kingmaker Kampagne (today):

• 1: System
  Pathfinder + Lorefinder (+ Eberron-Conversionguide Pathfinder)

• 2: Setting
  World: Eberron
  Location: Eldeen Reaches, between Merylsward (startplace) and Alvirad

• 3: Player Charakters (today)
  - Elf (House Thuranni - Shadow Network): Barbarian 4 (Invulnerable Rager) ; Dragonmark Heir 2
  - Human: Paladin 7
  - Half Elf: Fighter 4 ; Wizard 3
  - Halfling (House Jorasco - Healers Guild): Bard 6

• 4: NSC Contacts
  
  Campaigne NSC Contacts:

  - Oleg
  - Bokken (hope to win him for our town)
  - Boggard (hope to win him too)
  - Kobolds (silvermine , trade pakt)
  
  Eberron-NSC Contacts:
  - Banking Guild: House Kundarak (want to set up the goldmine)
  - Druids: Greensinger (want to build a small town by the Elk Temple)
  - Handlers Guild: Orien Ir Vadalis (Siberys Mark) - son of Baron Dalin d´Vadalis
  - Wayfinder Foundation (interests in magic items)
  

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Building Plan (today)

I. My faforite place(s) for the first town(s):

A: Stag Lord´s Castle
B: Temple of th Elk
C: Oleg's Trading Post

II: First Buildings:

- Use Stag Lord´s Castle as startpoint for the city (Defence ; Water ; Place to life and work without building houses first)
- Use Oleg´s Trading Post as travel- and tradepost
- Let "druids" build small town by Elk Tempel
- Let "bank" start / set up the goldmine

III: Build streets to:

- Silvermine (trade with kobolds)
- Temple of the Elk
- Oleg´s Trading Post (trade)
- Goldmine
- Merylsward (City in north)
- Alvirad (city in south)

[Rickmeister]

Pro-tip: Don't go for the optimization, go for the flavour! It won't take long to get the kingdom running superbly, so choose flavour over "+2" I'd say :)

[Der Origami Mann]

Sure. Flavour is a big point.
But as I am only one of four players I must tell the others (including the DM), why I think, we should build our city there [see "my faforite place(s) for the first town(s)].
As I read it is not a good Idea to start more towns at once, but I think we could start with effective

Three towns:

A: Stag Lord´s Castel (Main Town)
Our new headquarter and the start for our Main city near the castle.
B: Elk Temple (Temple Town)
Take the help from the Druids and start there a little town
C: Oleg´s Trading Post. (Trade Town)
I think Oleg could manage the trading post without our help, but we should build it up, too.

Someone wrote in a thread, that my faforite place "A" is the 2nd best place to start. But what is the best place and why?
Is there "a best place" in the first kingmaker-map?
What should a good place have?
Could we start with 3 "towns"?

[Odraude]

I'd go with Stag Lord's castle, just because it's defensible (on a hill) and you get a castle for it. Every would-be king and robber baron needs a castle!

[Umbranus]

I think it depends upon which religions your kingdome will favor.
If the god of the hunt is to be one of your major deities it might be fitting to choose the temple of the elk or his holy statue somewhere else in the region. If you don't care about him it would not be fitting at all.

We used location A in our game because of the ruins we could use and because being on some kind of waterway is always good for a city.

[Der Origami Mann]

Umbranus wrote:

I think it depends upon which religions your kingdome will favor.

If the god of the hunt is to be one of your major deities it might be fitting to choose the temple of the elk or his holy statue somewhere else in the region. If you don't care about him it would not be fitting at all.

This is a good hint.

But we convertet the religion: golarion (god of hunt) -> eberron (Balinor), so it´s a part of the Sovereign Host, which is the commonly worshipped pantheon of deities in Eberron (Khorvaire).
So Yes, - I think the religion could be a mayor deitie of our kingdom.

(My Character [the elf] follows first the "Keepers of the Past" and second the Sovereign Host.)

btw.:

Count rivers as streets?
I would like to use the rivers for Trade, too.

[Rickmeister]

Rivers =/= streets, but flavour wise will see boats passing :-)

[Philip Knowsley]

There's also some posts in a thread on these boards, which points out that
the Staglord's is a poor option because it is a VERY heavy BP investment at
the outset to actually buy the 'castle'...when your budding kingdom can
least afford to be so BP depleted.

If you want to go quickly into 3 towns, the fort is probably the least
favourable option.

If you want to set up there & not take the half-price building option
straight away - then it's probably almost as good as anywhere else on the
map...except that it is MILES away from your nearest source of adventuring
equipment. That stuff (incl. magic items) will need to be placed on order,
& will take weeks to reach you.

My guys have been playing for flavour & organic growth, rather than purely
going for the quickest route options. They are 2 & a half years into the
kingdom building aspect, & really struggled for the 1st 2 years - which
was kinda cool...just like a real 'start-up' settlement. They now have 3
towns, the first was built at the old bridge over the Thorn River. They
reasoned it was half way between Oleg's & 'the wild frontier'. :)
2nd & 3rd towns respectively were at Oleg's & then the Temple of the Elk.

Hope that gives you some ideas...but - at the end of the day, it's your
game...play it & have fun, rather than trying to optimise. (unless
optimising is your groups way of having fun - in which case...go for it!)

[Der Origami Mann]

Philip Knowsley wrote:

If you want to go quickly into 3 towns, the fort is probably the least favourable option.

The "Tempel-Town" would be build by the Druids.

-> Build houses, market, herbs, ..
The "Outpost" is still there.
-> Build houses, market, tavern/inn, ...
The "Castle-City" is there too and is in the middle of the (1st) card, near three resources + Rivers + Sea
-> Build a "City"

-> I would connect these three "Building Places" and the "ressources" with streets. Then build the first buildings, so that the three "towns" can grow parallel, but spennt the most BP for the Castle-City ...

Philip Knowsley wrote:

If you want to set up there & not take the half-price building option straight away - then it's probably almost as good as anywhere else on the map...except that it is MILES away from your nearest source of adventuring equipment. That stuff (incl. magic items) will need to be placed on order, & will take weeks to reach you.

Did this Building not count as a building until we spent BP for it?

I thought we would get the half (or more) of the "points", because we can use it without spent BP on it - or can´t we?!

Quote:

Rivers =/= streets, but flavour wise will see boats passing :-)

A good point! We have to check if the river could be used by boat / ship and buy some boats for trade & travel.

But I also thougt we could use the river, to get wood from north to south (tempel to castle) without carry it over land (log driving / timber raft).

[Philip Knowsley]

Existing 'damaged' buildings only count once you've paid the extra 50% or
whatever, to make them whole...otherwise, they're just a ruined building
with atmosphere & potential in your nice, shiny, new town... :)

[Queen Moragan]

Another key point building the castle at the stag lord fort, is the central geographic location.

It is in the middle of greenbelt map, where your kingdom should be centered, you should absorb that map and the two adjacent maps (the Nomen Heights & the Hook tongue Slough), into your kingdom.

Putting your capital in the middle of the kingdom makes it harder for others to get to it;)

[Der Origami Mann]

Philip Knowsley wrote:

Existing 'damaged' buildings only count once you've paid the extra 50% or whatever, to make them whole...otherwise, they're just a ruined building with atmosphere & potential in your nice, shiny, new town... :)

I think it´s not a total "ruin". It is verry hard to get in and the stag lord was (a long time) save behind this walls.

Also the tempel (ruin) is a verry holy place and usefull, too.

-> I would give the half points (economy, ...) for these buildungs.

Queen Moragan wrote:

Another key point building the castle at the stag lord fort, is the central geographic location. (...)

That´s a good point - thanks :-)

[JohnB]

Rememeber you can build at the stag lords fort WITHOUT developing it first. You could build all the other things you want there first - and then upgrade the castle later (which is exactly what my players have done.

It seemed to work out OK :)

[Philip Knowsley]

Der Origami Mann wrote:

-> I would give the half points (economy, ...) for these buildungs.

Your game, Your call is what it comes down to. :)

Just be aware that as the AP is written, you only get the benefits if you
spend the cash...