Advice for a GM on Golem creation.

[Saraiso]

The situation is this, I am running a group of friends through Carrion Crown and they have stumbled across a flesh golem manual which they are now discussing whether to acquire, which has raised a whole bunch of questions about how they actually work.

1) What is the cost for making a golem using a manual? If they get the manual does it only cost 500gp for the body like it describes under the flesh golem entry, or would it be the full cost of making the golem (10,500)? Does the 500gp include all the bodies that need to be scrounged, or is it in addition to that?

2) What is the time requirement for crafting this golem using a manual? Would it be 21 days according to the base price of the golem, or would it be 1 day according to the cost of the body? Building a golem in one day seems really fast to me.

3) Can UMD be used in this process? The party consists of a cleric, a summoner, a bard, and a paladin. None of them have all the spells required to create the flesh golem (most importantly limited wish) on their class lists, so none of them can use the manual since its spell trigger. The summoner has UMD though; can he use that to activate the item and bypass the spell requirements for it? What about the caster level requirements, does UMD let him bypass that also?

4) What would the skill required be, and what would be the DC? I am having a hard time figuring out which skill rolls would be required for something like this. Maybe Heal or Craft(Leatherworking) for putting together the body, and Spellcraft for using the book? What would the DC's be for both?

The big concern here is that the party is level 4, and I feel like letting them craft a cr 7 flesh golem for 500gp, in 1 day, using UMD to bypass the spell and level requirements, will be slightly gamebreaking.

My instinct is to just say that UMD can't be used as this is part of item creation rather than magic item activation (just like a spellcaster can't substitute a UMD check for a spell requirement when crafting a wondrous item; they must raise the crafting DC instead for a spell they don't have). However That seems shaky to me as its pretty much the same as using a wand to help in magic item creation which can use UMD to activate. Not sure I want to set that precedent.

Any advice on how to limit this (or even if I should) would be appreciated :)

[Troubleshooter]

You're right, that sounds too beefy. I'm not going to say that I understood the rules when I first read them. I'm not even going to say that I definitely understand them now. Part of my confusion is that in normal crafting rules, I'm used to a certain procedure -- craft a base item, and then enchant it. Two stages. The golem manual rules seemed to blend the process a little to me.

Still, as I continue reading this, I'm becoming more convinced that the purpose of the book is to serve as a substitute for having the feat, spells and skills.

To argue from the balance perspective, assume that the golem manuals enchant your golems free of charge. You'll quickly realize that the cost of each golem manual is always cheaper than the cost of crafting your golem at half price with the feat. In that case, who would ever take the feat? It's more expensive, takes more time, and you're missing out on a +5 bonus to your crafting skills.

I do think that I can solidly answer your question 1) though. The Cost of a flesh golem is 10,500, and the Price of the flesh golem is 20,500 -- there is a 500 gold portion that isn't halved by your ability to enchant it yourself. I believe this is the unguents, which are the only priced material component of the golem. The bodies are not priced (indeed, you'd be hard-pressed to go out and buy some outside of perhaps Kaer Maga). Further, it would perhaps be a little unfair to hold dead bodies against your players' wealth by level, since they're not inherently useful or salable. They're even perishable (hah hah hah).

Anyway, the book allows you to craft golems without the Craft Construct feat, it gives you a skill bonus, and hands you all the spells you'll need to craft them.

2) That's already some great benefits for its price, and I think the actual crafting is supposed to follow the normal crafting rules -- including spending the Cost in gold, and taking 1 day of enchantment for every 1,000 gold.

3) I'm less sure about this one, so I'll let someone more knowledgeable comment. Still, casting spells from wands sounds rather expensive to me, so I'm not sure it's so unbalancing.

Keep in mind however, that there are golem crafting NPCs out there in Golarion, and somehow they manage to get past all the spell requirements. I don't think the requirements are supposed to be too forbidding.

4) The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level of the item. The flesh golem is CL 8th, so I'd set the base DC to 13 before you start doing things like ignoring spell requirements and speeding up the crafting time.

Skills for enchanting of items seem to be the same skills for creating the base item, so I'd run with the skills listed under each golem (in this case Craft (leatherworking) and Heal) then add Spellcraft.

It's kind of a hazy subject, so I'm open to corrections.

[Saraiso]

Thanks for the reply.

I think you are right, having to pay the cost to make the golem sounds like it will be needed for balance reasons. That alone will probably make it much less likely that the party will attempt to aquire the manual.

As for 3); the spell comes from the tome not from a wand, so if UMD is allowed than it would allow anyone to use a manual to make a golem, not just a caster of the appropriate type. For example a fighter with a high UMD score could build golems as long as he can make the DC 20 UMD check to activate each spell in the manual. Since the spells come from the manual itself, they dont even need to buy wands.

On the one hand, since the party is so non-traditional, allowing UMD to be used on manuals is the only way they would ever be able to make golems (other than the cleric who can make clay golems if he wants to). Primarily it is the summoner who wants to make the thing, and since limited wish and geas/quest are not on the summoner list, UMD is the way he is trying to bypass that requirement.

I agree with you about the NPC golem crafters, however if they are doing it with their own craft construct feat then it follows the normal rules for magic items, which means they can make golems they don't know the spells for as long as they raise the spellcraft DC by 5 each. So, for your average lvl 8 golem crafting wizard, the DC would be 23 (Base DC is CL (8)+5, +5 for Limited Wish, +5 for Geas/Quest) and with a reasonable intelect, maxed spellcraft, and possibly a skill focus feat, a DC 23 spellcraft should be easily doable.

The problem that I am having arrises if you allow those standard item creation rules to work for manuals. Now, since the book provides all the spells, the only checks are a DC 13 heal/Craft(leather) check to make the body, which gets a +5 due to the manual, and a spellcraft check to enchant it. The big problem is that according to the item creation rules you can skip the "creator must be 8th level" requirement by raising the DC by 5, and since all the spells are accounted for that gives you a final DC of 18 (8 (CL) + 5(missing creator level requirement) + 5) which this 4th level summoner can succeed at by taking 10.

That just seems too easy to me. =/

I may just house rule that since the golem manual is providing the feat and its not their innate abilities crafting the thing, they cant waive any missing pre-req's to raise the DC, and thus the players would have to be level 7 (requirement is 8, but the manual gives you a +1 on your level for crafting the thing) to create it. By that time a CR 7 golem might be less disruptive to the group.

I mainly don't want the "golem do this" situation developing where the PC's sit back in safety while the invincible golem kills all the monsters. Especially since this is an undead heavy game, and a high CR golem thats immune to fear, ability damage/drain, negative levels, and has DR/adamantine, would be all but untouchable for the majority of encounters.