Some folks and I just started up a Second Darkness campaign that I guess goes to 16 or something like that. I haven't played a Pathfinder Monk so I decided to give it a whirl. I don't know the intricacies of the class, though, so I could use some help with weak spots or things that don't make sense. I took some suggestions from a previous topic and came up with this:
Things to note:
- Party is composed of Ranged Inquisitor, Gunslinger, Barbarian (whatever archetype is the drunken one), Rogue, Bard (Street Performer), Oracle/Cleric
- My DM will probably allow the enchanted Brass Knuckles bit
Rolled Stats: 17 16 14 13 13 12
Attributes: STR 18 (14 + 2 (Half-Elf) + 2 (via leveling) | DEX 16 | | CON 13 | INT 13 | WIS 18 (17 + 1 (via leveling) | CHA 12
Bonus Flowing Monk Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ki Throw
Feats: Combat Expertise, Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, Deflect Arrows, Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp
Qinggong Powers: Barksin, Ki Leech, Ki Shout (replacing High Jump, Slow Fall, and Wholeness of Body)
The idea is to be: a kind of 'tank*' using defensive fighting, Crane Wings, Deflect Arrows, the bonuses from Flowing Monk, and Barkskin; a disabler through Trips and Disarms and Dirty Tricks; and a (reactive) damage dealer using Ki Shout, Flurries, and AoOs generated by Disarms and Trips (that I either initiate with a FoB or, better yet, with Redirection) in conjunction with Vicious Stomp.
Dirty Trick is mostly for creatures I can't Trip or Disarm but honestly, I dunno about Dirty Trick, it seems unwieldy. I might swap that and Combat Expertise out (and Ki Throw, which I don't really see the value of) for Boar Style/Ferocity/Shred, as the Bleed damage would work really, really well with my Trip/Stomp combos or my Flurries. Though I might also need Combat Style Master for that.
*I'll easily have the highest AC of the group and by being in the front lines with the Barbarian, but being the one Tripping and Disarming, I know the enemies will come for me.
What do you guys think?
Yeah, I'd suggest dropping Dirty Trick and perhaps even replacing Disarm with something else. Like Trip, Disarm seems to be one of those that gets progressively less useful as time goes by and more things attempt to smack with with claws, bite you with teeth, gore you with horns, etc. So you don't want TWO combat maneuvers that are hard to pull off at later levels.
Perhaps focus on something else besides a combat maneuver so you have a backup for when you fight something it just won't work on.
What would you suggest I take if I drop Dirty Trick (and its accompanying feats) and Disarm? It seems like we're going to run into a whole bunch of humanoids (I know nothing about Second Darkness though, so I could be wrong) which is why I took it in the first place. The image of Disarming a person and instantly taking their weapon and then throwing it away the next round (or, better yet, tossing it into a Bag of Holding) is really appealing...
Hm, if you're fighting a bunch of humanoids and such Disarm'll probably work for you then.
But perhaps replace Dirty Trick and the stuff you used to qualify for it to get a little bit more of your traditional damage dealer stuff. Weapon Focus, Power Attack, that sort of thing. That way you can rely on your Trips/Disarms/Whatever when you can but if it ever comes down to a good ol' fashioned brawl you can dish it out if you need to.
Do you use a weapon?
I'd prefer to not use a weapon. I'm banking on the Brass Knuckles/enchantment bit but altering that to be something like handwraps or iron rings, something to that effect. I was going to keep a Temple Sword around, though.
Power Attack has always seemed like such a risky investment, especially if I'm already using Crane Style to fight defensively for the AC. It's a lot of -hit stacking up. I was planning on getting Improved Critical at some point, forgot to add that in there.
It's worth mentioning that I'm also not completely sold on Flowing Monk, either. I like it a LOT but part of me keeps looking at MoMS, mostly because I'm losing Fast Movement (which I love), but MoMS seems ehh (no Flurry!) and doesn't seem to help the Monk shine in what I want to do, which is to run interference, disable, and distract (with some decent damage on top).
EDIT: I've also been wondering whether it'd be best to do just Qinggong Monk to get rid of the crap like Slow Fall and High Jump but keep the fairly useful Stunning Fist and Fast Movement and FoB. And then pick up Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip and Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, a bunch of damage-centric feats...but as it stands, I get attacked a lot because I'm all up in their face. Upping my AC would help a lot. And all the Flowing Monk bonuses are pretty awesome. The stock Monk seems pretty solid, especially with Qinggong, but I want to do more than just deal damage. That gets boring (to me).
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
In my humble opinion MoMS is the best at being a mobile little nuisance running around the battlefield.
Get Crane, Snake, and Panther going and you've got a few things going for you.
1.) Crane ups your AC and lets you deflect one attack per round, counter-attacking them afterward.
2.) Snake lets you deflect one attack per round, assuming your Sense Motive is high, and lets you retaliate against any enemy that misses you. Twice on the same person once per round.
3.) Panther lets you run around and smack people who dare swipe at you for provoking AoOs. Running Snake + Panther lets you run around and smack anyone who you provoke an AoO from. Since they take a -2 to-hit, they're more likely to miss. If they do, smack 'em for missing (Snake) and the whap 'em again if you have a Swift action left. Use the Immediate to negate the attack if they manage to hit you and then smack 'em for missing anyway.
If you can make Combat Maneuvers as an AoO (I'm not entirely sure if you can, but I think so) then there comes all sorts of fun where you can provoke from them, smack 'em, smack 'em with Snake if they miss (doing a trip), getting an attack from Vicious Stomp, and then burning your Swift to hit 'em again. Throw another attack in there if you have Greater Trip.
Continue your movement to wherever you were headed and lay the beatdown on that guy next round.
If that's a no-go, you still have the ability to deal a solid chunk of damage while en route to your destination, and then get your Trip on once you get there, which is nice.
Maneuver Master sounds good too, but I've never played one. I'm playing a Dragon/Snake/Panther MoMS currently, and it works pretty well. Used a 3 level Brawler dip to make him more of a melee brute, because I like that kind, but the principle is similar.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
For a Flowing Monk, wouldn't you rather have Improved Reposition than either Improved Dirty Trick or Improved Disarm? Remember that with Redirection, you can interrupt an attack against you, Sicken them, and move them to a space where they can no longer attack. Plus at level 8 you can combination Trip and Reposition.
Or lose Ki Throw instead (unless you need it as a prereq for something else) since the combination Trip/Reposition that you get pretty much supersedes it.
Doesn't that kind of MoMS build make you completely dependent on AoOs to do any real damage, though? Because without it you get three (or four, with a ki point) attacks under normal conditions since you lose FoB. And normal conditions are what you'd run into most often, I'd think. But a Crane Wing trip combo with a Panther retaliatory strike combined with, say, the free 2d6 from Boar Style on THEIR attack is pretty incredible, not gonna lie.
As for Reposition, I don't understand it's point. If I am a Flowing Monk, I want everyone near me. And I want them in close range to do my AoOs. Why would I want to push them away?
ALSO: Rynjin, you can sub in Trip, Disarm, Reposition, and I think just about every maneuver except Dirty Trick for an AoO. So there's that.
How is your AC under that build? Is your high AC reliant on Snake Style and the use of Swift Action to use your Sense Motive check? While it's an awesome ability, having to use a Swift Action to do it kind of limits a lot of other possibilities.
I have 22 (21?) AC without buffing, at level 8. More if I use Barkskin. I have a +24 Sense Motive I believe, so it's essentially "Nope" to any given attack as long as I don't roll a 1 (and still, an effective +3 AC can't hurt). I just rebuilt this character so I could be off by one or two on those numbers. He clocks in at +12 to-hit and 1d10+25 on a Power Attack as well. Still behind the Barbarian by a couple of points on each, but beats the Paladin (without Smiting) and Magus.
Note: We used rolled stats and I rolled very well. So I have 22 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 18 Wis and everything else is 12 or higher as well.
And yes, the option I gave you would be pretty reliant on AoOs to function. I just threw it out as an amusing build you could try out. If nothing else it would be INTERESTING when you set it up.
But your Crane/Panther/Boar is likely much more reliable, with slightly less potential for lulz, since you can just use Crane/Boar when sitting still. Since you have a decent Str though, Dragon Style might work a bit better. The extra 2d6 is probably canceled out or exceeded by being able to add 2x Str to one hit and 1.5x to the rest.
And if you focus on using Stunning Fist any, being able to impart Shaken for 1d4 rounds as well as Stun is always a good bit of icing.
Personally I like tripping plus Ki Throw. Basically it allows you to trip someone and have them land in any square you threaten. This allows the BSF or the RageyBarb to suddenly hit them too at the bonuses from them being prone, or if you move them behind you (since you will be front line) anyone with reach or a small 5' step or something can beat on the now prone attacker too...also, you have moved the bad guy, so another bad guy can come up to take his place which means more AoO potentially and not having to wait for next turn.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
modicasolis wrote: As for Reposition, I don't understand it's point. If I am a Flowing Monk, I want everyone near me. And I want them in close range to do my AoOs. Why would I want to push them away? I talked about using Reposition defensively, but it can also be used offensively -- moving opponents to areas where they are flanked, or where they cannot flank you. Anything you can do with Ki Throw, you can do with Reposition, since it is the same thing. If you take Greater Reposition, moving your opponents provokes AoOs just as though they had moved themselves. (There's also a new feat in the Dungeoneer's Handbook which allows you to Reposition people into hazards or traps, which can be situationally devastating.)
Also worth saying, at 4th level you can start using Reposition to interrupt an attack against an ally, so now you are preventing damage against your allies. And, if you have Greater Reposition, that ally will get an AoO against them.
You may decide that Reposition isn't something you care about, and that's fine, but the other point is that there is absolutely no point in a Flowing Monk taking Ki Throw, because once they hit 8th level they gain the ability to combine Trip and Reposition anyway.
I just put together a sample MoMS Monk using Crane, Snake, Panther, and Boar styles. I don't know if I like the idea of it now, on paper. A few things stand out.
The class, built this way, seems extremely reactive, as I'm having to rely on AoOs happening TO me, rather than generating the AoOs myself. I find this idea frustrating. I could change things around so that I was using, say, Dragon, Tiger, Snake, Crane or Dragon, Tiger, Boar, Snake or something that gives me a lot more reliable damage and makes me a great deal more proactive, but that also goes against why I wanted to Monk it up in the first place as it replaces the fun of maneuvers and enemy control/harassment with a lot of straight up damage-based combat.
Additionally, I built a MM Monk, which seems to be so focused on maneuvers that it's not capable of doing a great job of anything else.
Flowing Monk seems like a great middle ground, opening me up to do a great deal of harassment and damage.
I'm editing it a little, I'd like thoughts on how it looks now.
Currently, the stats are the same as above, but the feats have changed to the following:
Boar Style, Combat Reflexes, Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, Dodge, Improved/Greater Trip, Improved/Greater Reposition, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Vicious Stomp (Still kept Barkskin, Ki Shout, Ki Leech)
The idea is that I'd use Power Attack, then attack with Spring Attack but use that attack to Trip. The Trip would generate my first AoO, Vicious Stomp would generate the second, and then the enemy would bleed for an extra 2d6. Then I can move afterwards (moreso with a ki point, at that). It would allow me to dart through a group of enemies to attract their attention, so to speak. Do that to a couple guys, get them clustered around me, start fighting defensively, toss on Barkskin, start Flurrying, and keep getting Triple AoOs from Crane Riposte as I do so.
I think this would work well. Let me know if I'm wrong!
EDIT Another option is dropping Spring Attack and Boar Style and getting Combat Expertise and Felling Smash. I just realized that I won't be able to run Boar Style and Crane Style at the same time, which limits their usefulness. I could still Spring Attack/Trip/Stomp/Boar Bleed until I decided to change into Crane and go on the defensive, but then I lose the random procs of bleed damage, which sucks. But being able to Trip off of an attack would be nice. Would be even better with Vital Strike.
Plus there are other penalties stacking up from the use of Redirection throwing and tripping people all over the place and Unbalancing Counter. And Unbalancing Counter, given my AoOs, will also leave the enemy flat-footed opens him up for my Rogue's sneak attacks. Not to mention flanking bonuses by positioning enemies with Redirection-Reposition.
modicasolis wrote: Currently, the stats are the same as above, but the feats have changed to the following:
Boar Style, Combat Reflexes, Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, Dodge, Improved/Greater Trip, Improved/Greater Reposition, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Vicious Stomp (Still kept Barkskin, Ki Shout, Ki Leech)...
Okay, tried to do this level by level. It was difficult. Boar Style is out for sure because I forgot I needed Combat Expertise to even get Greater Trip/Reposition. So I ended up doing
1/1 - Dodge, Combat Expertise
2 - Improved Trip
3 - Crane Style
5 - Crane Wing
6 - Combat Reflexes
7 - Greater Trip
9 - Vicious Stomp
10 - Improved Reposition
11 - Crane Riposte
13 - Power Attack
14 - Spring Attack
15 - Greater Reposition
OR
1/1 - Dodge, Power Attack
2 - Improved Trip
3 - Crane Style
5 - Crane Wing
6 - Combat Reflexes
7 - Combat Expertise
9 - Greater Trip
10 - Improved Reposition
11 - Vicious Stomp
13 - Crane Riposte
14 - Spring Attack
15 - Greater Reposition
This is far less than ideal. I'll still be throwing down pretty hard with Flurry of Blows and doing a lot of combat harassment but my Triple AoOs won't kick in till 9 and I don't have much in the way of bonus damage if I put off Power Attack. EDIT: Can't even get Greater Trip till 9 due to BAB requirements, I just realized. So...maybe this isn't as huge a deal as I thought. Still, I'd like to be able to the AoOs flowing sooner >:
This build still can take a punch no matter what. And I am, by level 6, still popping off multiple AoOs per round no matter what, making people flat-footed, using Redirection, and tripping. So it's not terrible. But nothing's where I want it to be, mostly because of Combat Expertise getting in the way. Shoulda been a human...
|
