RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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As a GM, I love running roleplay-heavy scenarios. I find that they tend to provide excellent player experiences, and I have the most fun when running them.
Usually, at least.
I've ran into issues, though, where it seems that the PCs idea of roleplay is to go around threatening everybody in the scenario, many times threatening characters that are likely far above their level. This has happened both in The Gods' Market Gamble and Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. My question to you is this: How do you, as a GM, deal with it when a player attempts to threaten/intimidate a character that they really shouldn't be able to do that with? How do you deal with a situation in which a non-combat NPC would obviously start combat, and you don't have a stat block?
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You can't add combat that isn't written into the scenario. I just have the NPC dismiss them, and refuse to talk to them after that. If they act like they are about to attack, i'll give them an easy dc int/wis check for them to realize if they start combat with this person they will loose. If they continue, I hand wave the combat and have them wake up in jail.
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What’s the average age of your player?
The reason I ask, is because I most often see this type of random aggression in the younger (teenager) crowd of gamers. That isn’t to say that there won’t be an older gamer or two who won’t also take the belligerent tack when interacting with NPCs. I remember running a Vampire the Masquerade game with people all over 30 years old, and one of them, with a brand new neophyte, was baldly insulting the Prince of the city. By rights, I should have just killed his character by Storyteller Fiat.
Sometimes all you have to do is iterate and then reiterate over and over, “are you sure you want to do that?”
In the case of The Throaty Mermaid, I’d have the captain turn around and dock back in (was it Magnimar if I remember correctly?) drop off the PC(s) that are causing the “I’m stupid” problems and ask Heidmarch for some new Pathfinders. Tell the players this is their last chance to have their characters stop being idiots.
You can also have the NPCs kill them with kindness.
Jeb the Mean Guy: Hey Cap, I’m now captain of this ship, and you are walking the plank dung heap!
Captain: <pats Jeb on the head> That’s nice. <turns to other PCs> He’s a funny guy isn’t he?
Jeb: <pulls sword> You die!
Captain: <sighs and quirks his eyebrow> Really?! On my Ship!? Yer lucky yer a Pathfinder, else I’d have ya keel-hauled!
Then narrate the crew of the ship grabbing the guy, disarming him, and tying him naked to the figurehead.
Basically that player doesn’t get to play his character for the rest of the scenario.
You have a right to narrate, deus ex-machina, or GM fiat (however you want to word it) things like this, to keep the story moving for all the players who aren’t being jerks.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Tetsujin,
That was another option, but at both tables, there was really only one problem player. I didn't feel it proper to fail everybody on the mission for the one player's action, even though nobody was trying to rein him in. I think they were all too shocked.
Kintrik,
In one of the situations, the NPC is statted for the unlikely event that combat ensues. Generally speaking, I would agree that you can't add combat to scenarios, but if a party outright attacks somebody, then *they* are adding the combat to the scenario, not me.
Andrew,
Both of the main players that I was having issues with were over 30. The younger players at the table on both occasions were not that problematic. One of the two is highly experienced in PFS, one was at her first game. That *would* have been a good way to handle it, tough. I suppose, alternatively, I could have had them disarm him, then lock him downstairs with the
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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If a PC is antagonizing an NPC without a stat block, you could just assume they're a high-level rogue with Sap Adept, Sap Master, and Quickdraw. Club the troublemaker unconscious in the surprise round, turn to the others and say, "You really should be more discerning about the company you keep. Now, shall we get back to business?"
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Contributor
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I'm in the conversation-then-fight-narration camp. I have the NPC smile faintly at the posturing but more or less wave it off. Or act like an adult being assaulted by a toddler, intimate that it's vaguely amusing and vaguely annoying at the same time. I try to give the player all the information they need to know that THIS IS A BAD IDEA.
If they persist, then I go to, "There's a quick flurry of motion and you suddenly find yourself face down on the ground. The pain in your shoulder is from your left arm being twisted up and around near to the breaking point and somehow, impossibly, the blade at your throat is your own. You are pinned, disarmed, and helpless."
And if it goes beyond THAT point (and it never has), say, if the party at large gets involved, yeah, I would give one more warning, this time directly and clearly. "This is a fight you can't hope to win," something like that. And if they persist, I suppose I would just call the scenario and distribute zero XP/zero gold Chronicle sheets after narrating them being dropped off at the local lodge trussed up like feastday gooses.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Ok, and when the belligerent PC (and the rest of the party) are clearly overpowered powergamers? Who will argue greatly with an arbitrary narration like that?
"Oh, they take a surprise attack at me? I have this thing to always act in a surprise round. I use my archon style and snake style to disarm him and trip him, and everybody nearby gets a free hit on him."
Not necesarily the right technical terms, but that's about how things go for the scripted encounters. Trying to come up with one off-script is just asking for trouble, with the PC's trouncing the statless NPC's and then going off the rails.
The problem with having a problem PC being hauled off is the assumption that there's anyone in the area who could actually pose a threat to the person.
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Ok, and when the belligerent PC (and the rest of the party) are clearly overpowered powergamers? Who will argue greatly with an arbitrary narration like that?
"Oh, they take a surprise attack at me? I have this thing to always act in a surprise round. I use my archon style and snake style to disarm him and trip him, and everybody nearby gets a free hit on him."
Not necesarily the right technical terms, but that's about how things go for the scripted encounters. Trying to come up with one off-script is just asking for trouble, with the PC's trouncing the statless NPC's and then going off the rails.
The problem with having a problem PC being hauled off is the assumption that there's anyone in the area who could actually pose a threat to the person.
You could always narrate that the PC's kill everyone on the boat, and then they lose the mission. No XP, no PP, no loot.
GM: "Sorry, you all want to be dinks, you don't get the rewards of the scenario. From now on if you want to be invited to my game days, please come as dutiful Pathfinders and not asshats."
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You could always narrate that the PC's kill everyone on the boat, and then they lose the mission. 1 XP, no PP, no loot.
GM: "Sorry, you all want to be dinks, you don't get the rewards of the scenario. From now on if you want to be invited to my game days, please come as dutiful Pathfinders and not asshats."
Edited (in bold) to be even better. ;)
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The Intimidate skill is designed so it could--theoretically--work on higher level characters. However, it's also designed to have repercussions.
Check: You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If successful, the target gives you the information you desire, takes actions that do not endanger it, or otherwise offers limited assistance. After the Intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
If they fail, screw with 'em. If that leads to mission failure, well, they opted to use that skill knowing full well what could happen.
If they succeed, the target is "friendly" and will tell them what they need to know. But then later the town watch comes by for a "friendly" chat of their own. One warning, then jail. Killing the watch for doing their legal responsibility would be pretty evil, at least in my opinion. Knocking them all out is just going to result in a lot of them coming next time, possibly with a few retired adventurers who live in town to supplement the posse. It will also make the PCs infamous, which means other NPCs won't want to meet with them. All told, scenario fail, write "wanted in (whatever)" on their Chronicles--or just remove them play for being evil, if they killed everyone.
(AFTER out-of-character warnings, obviously.)
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I find that condescention works quite well when a player gives the Venture captain grief. Also, having the VC or NPC ignore the belligerent character pointedly and talk to the more reasonable party members works wonders. Reminding a violent player that attacking Drendle Dreng will be the last thing his character does before becoming an NPC and leaving society play is also effective.
Nick
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The way I handle these things is as follows:
Any physical aggressiveness towards the venture-captain overseeing the mission results in the offending PC being overpowered and failing the scenario (somewhere on these boards Michael Brock stated this was an acceptable call). Likewise, excessive rudeness that does not get corrected when the venture-captain calls for due respect results in the offending PC being removed from the mission and failing the scenario. Just some attitude is acceptable though, depending on the V-C in question. Additionally, I will always caution a player about to undertake one of these actions of the likely outcome if they persist.
If it is another non-pathfinder NPC in the scenario? I will generally handle it straight up via the intimidate skill, even if it seems unlikely. If the intimidating PC succeeds, good for you, the NPC will become temporarily cooperative, but if you have to deal with him again later it's going to be less than pleasant.
My group and I often hypothetically discuss how we would handle a problem player at our table. We are very sad we can't just knock disruptive PCs out and then revive them at the end of the scenario. One solution we have considered if the GM doesn't correct their behavior is letting the disruptive PC go down in the first combat by just sitting on the sidelines until the problem takes care of itself. That seems fairly jerkish, though. The GM almost has to take care of the issue, but PCs just aren't equipped to deal with it themselves because of our table policies.
Thankfully we haven't had to deal with that yet.
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I have only seen a belligerent player once. It was in We be Goblins and the player decided to kill half the tribe in the first setting because he failed to ride the pig (He was determined to see the pig as his mount or dead). The GM stepped in with the tribe leader, put two arrows in the character followed by a coup de grace, and wrote dead on the chronicle sheet.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Nope. We were on the way out, so our lead diplomat just explained that the poor guy was suffering from some sort of mental affliction, apologised for the disrespect, told the PC to keep his mouth shut, and left quickly before we went (back) to hell in a handbasket.
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How do you, as a GM, deal with it when a player attempts to threaten/intimidate a character that they really shouldn't be able to do that with? How do you deal with a situation in which a non-combat NPC would obviously start combat, and you don't have a stat block?
First, if it's just a harmless NPC, why not let them intimidate or boss them around a little. Everyone roleplays to live out their fantasies a bit, and maybe your player has that fantasy. If it doesn't hurt, why not have a little fun with it?
If it's an NPC they need to be diplomatic with, tell the player the likely outcome of talking to the NPC like that and ask them “Are you sure you want to say that to the NPC?”. And if they want to push it, then judge accordingly.
I have no problem ending the mission before it begins if that’s what makes sense.
Of course, that’s not the real problem. The real problem is you don’t want to fail it for the other players at the table. It’s not fair to them. In a non-PFS game, there would be pvp and the stupid PC would die (at the hands of the PCs), end of story. But there's no pvp in PFS.
As GM, what do you do with a PC whose only goal is to wreck the scenario for all of the other players? If it goes too far, as GM I would tell the player about the “don’t be a jerk rule”, warn the player, and then kick them from the table if it continued to ruin everyone’s fun.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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As GM, what do you do with a PC whose only goal is to wreck the scenario for all of the other players? If it goes too far, as GM I would tell the player about the “don’t be a jerk rule”, warn the player, and then kick them from the table if it continued to ruin everyone’s fun.
In my (admittedly limited) experience of PFS play, I've yet to encounter a player who was intentionally setting out to ruin the enjoyment of other players. But, sadly, I have encountered more than one player (and even a GM) who seemed to pay no attention to what the others at the table wanted - as long as they were having fun, that was all that mattered.
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Drendle drang keeps a box in his office for just such an occasion. Along with this speech.
Drendle drang takes a gulp of his morning orange juice. (and a philter of glibness)
"Pathfinders, It is imperative that this box be delivered to Azdrathos, the blue wyrm with all haste. We wish to seek her permission to search beneath her lair for the helmet of thefirst dwarven thane. Deliver this box to her, unopened. She'll understand it means we desire a peaceful resolution.
Inside is a scale belonging to her son, who was killed by unknown assailants a few years back. The dragon will not be happy, and the pathfinders will not survive.
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In my (admittedly limited) experience of PFS play, I've yet to encounter a player who was intentionally setting out to ruin the enjoyment of other players. But, sadly, I have encountered more than one player (and even a GM) who seemed to pay no attention to what the others at the table wanted - as long as they were having fun, that was all that mattered.
I keep reading stories about PCs who open new doors in the middle of combat (or at the end of combat before everyone has healed). I actually consider that pvp, and unfortunately because this is PFS, the GM has to step in because PCs are basically powerless against shenanigans. If that was non-PFS, that PC would either die or be kicked from the group. The player would likely be perma kicked from the group too.
That assumes these accounts are true. I personally have not experienced that, but in the rare case I was GMing and I did, that's what I would do.
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There is a time and place to bully NPCs. If a player wants to threaten an NPC then let them. You can always have the NPC dismiss them or have them escort them out.
In severing Ties
My Sczarny character is very chaotic and free willed. When he encountered Guaril Karela I was rude to him. The players and DM were like you should like this guy he is your faction leader. My response was. I hate'em he always tells me what to do! The whole table loved the idea of it.
Now this weekend I played with someone that tried to sneak through The dissappeared claiming they needed the bathroom, Failed the bluff check horribly and kept badgering the DM about it for over 10 minutes. Then later she brought it up again and wasted another 5 minutes. Not to mention The other out of place things she was trying to do. I was ready to leave the table, and got excited when the party decided to leave the mission early so I could leave the table gracefully.
Sometimes the DM needs to put thier foot down and stop things. If the table is suffering from one dink. Then that dink needs DM fiat. If that dink is entertaining the table then that is something different. After all you are here for entertainment.
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For the love of god, don't use GM fiat to "put PCs in their place" to make a point. Oh yes, you're the big bad GM and "don't mess around with my NPCs". Just don't do it.
In Throaty Mermaid the captain should be able to waive or ignore that stuff easily. Joke about it even. Life at sea (and in port) is rough, he can take it (and laugh at the PC).
Or even intimidate himself by asking the PC if he wants to "walk the plank".
You can also tell the PC that if the captain and his crew die, they are stranded in the middle of the ocean with no ability to navigate or guide the ship. In other words, even if they win they lose.
The <redacted> could even use a combat (or standoff) as an opportunity to do his thing.
"Putting PCs in their place" is definitely one of the most annoying (and common) bad GM habits that exist. Often when GMs do it, they cheat and break the rules, which violates the GM/player trust. This is where combative relationships develop between players and GMs.
For me, the trait is negative enough that it could eventually make me avoid tables with that GM.
As GM I would only do that rarely (mostly it would be to prevent a PC from derailing the entire PFS session with a pointless fight that will just get him and the party killed for nothing). << That should be your last and final option though, and it should be done gently and as fairly as possible. Strapping a PC to the front of a ship naked sounds funny (when we read it on the message boards), but it's probably not so funny for the player you just "taught a lesson to". And no, it won't correct her behavior, it will just make her dislike you.
If a player is local, this advice is even more true.
(1 billion years ago I had a girlfriend who was interested in RPGs and I knocked her unconscious in her 1st bar brawl. It was fair... but don't do it. She just wanted to live out her "tough guy" fantasy, but I wasn't mature enough to just let her have it at the time. As a result, it was her first and last game. Lesson learned.)
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Sometimes the DM needs to put thier foot down and stop things. If the table is suffering from one dink. Then that dink needs DM fiat. If that dink is entertaining the table then that is something different. After all you are here for entertainment.
I agree, GMs need to control the table so that it's fun for everyone. But there's definitely a difference between a GM shooting down a PC with lightning (the classic example) or knocking them out and strapping them to the front of a ship naked.
When a player is out of line, I'd much rather see the GM settle the problem with the player OOC as well.