Hello Paizo forums !
So, I'm brand new in these parts and English is not my mother language, so I apologize in advance for some stupidity you may find in this, and in subsequent, posts.
So, I just built my first Pathfinder character ever, and, looking at the different threads, got a little bit scared. If at lvl9 my character is supposed to kill a creature with 80hp in two rounds, then I failed, hard, at building that character.
Said character ? Erwan, the human with the ridiculously long title.
The point is to make him a swordlord, a competitive swordlord, if possible.
Stat array (25 points buy) : Str 12 / Dex 18 (20 with the two stat ups)/ Con 14 / Int 14 / Wis 8 / Cha 14
Yeah, I made him a Dex Based Swordlord, Anarchitect must be screaming "IDIOOOOOT" somewhere...
So, to that end I took the Swordlord and gladiator archetypes for fighters, had him take 6 levels in that, then got him into the Swordlord PrC for one level, and then the Duelist PrC for 2 levels.
As for feats, I took :
Aldori Dueling Mastery (free)
Combat Expertise
Dazzling display (Aldori dueling sword, AdS for short)
Dodge
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (AdS)
Improved Disarm
Mobility
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (AdS)
Weapon Expertise (AdS)
and formerly "Agile maneuvers", until I discovered that Weapon Finesse already allowed me to do that with my AdS.
So, I'm left with a vacant feat, and I got pretty damn interested in "Piranha Strike"
And this is where I start needing your help HARD, guys. The feat is clear, it works with LIGHT weapons. Not FINESSEable weapons. And while the AdS is finesseable, it is not, and clearly stated as not being LIGHT.
So, do I give up on the feat ? If not, what kind of arguments could allow my GM to allow this feat to work this an AsD ? Or, even better, is there an errata stating that it works with finesseable weapons ?
If taking this feat is completely impossible, what should I take ?
Spring attack, to make the most out of my defensive parry class feature ?
I seem to be lagging behind really, really, really hard as far as damage is concerned, that's why I had my eye on Piranha Strike. So, what could I take to raise my damage output ?
Of course, if you spotted mistakes, or some redundancy in the build, or some things I could optimize, I'm all ears !
Thanks in advance !
Ps : It might be a good idea to post said damage output, actually, so here it is :
Weapon : +2 Adamantium AdS
+18 / +13 1D8+11
Armor : +2 Mithril Breastplate + Natural armor amulet +2 + ring of protection +1
Ca : 31= 10+8(armor)+1(deflection)+7(dex+int)+2(shield)+1(dodge)+2(natural)
Ps 2 : I didn't take the stats to use power attack on purpose, and will not take that feat if I can help it. The reason is simple, with Weapon Finesse (feat) and Deft Strike (Aldori PrC 1) I attack and damage with dexterity, while I did not find (I may have missed it) clearly stated that you cannot power attack while finessing, I can't find it in me to look at my GM straight in the eye and say :
"I attack and damage with my dexterity with Weapon finesse and Deft Strike... AND ADD +6 DAMAGE BY POWER ATTACKING LIKE A BRUTE !!! RAAAWR !!!"
For me the build lacks a clear focus on what you want to do... Piranha Strike is not legal in Society Play for your char, but if it's a homegame, I'd talk to my GM... anyways, you could take 2 levels of urban ranger to get power attack by chosing two-hand-weapon style, which would improve your dpr a bit... also I'd consider gloves of duelling... you might put keen on your sword and take crit feats...
that's the ideas I have.
Thanks for the quick reply !
So, my second post scriptum already answers the part about going urban ranger to get Power Attack.
For what I want to do, yeah, I didn't seem to convey it clearly in the build, but long story short, I want to "kick ass and chew bubble gum"... As an Aldori Swordlord.
So I took the different features and tried to find a way to enhance them, weapon focus/specialization aid Disarming strike (the feature, not the feat ^^), and so does Improved Disarm and Precise Strike from going Duelist.
So I had to use 5 feats to get those 2 PrC, which, admittedly, prevented me from focusing clearly in an area of expertise.
Basically, I want to be able to tank, disarm, dish out damage and scare the hell out of my opponents with my peerless skill.
For the whole Critical chain/keen weapon, I agree that it would help a lot, and while it asks a number of feats (again), as a fighter I can afford them, my only doubt is : Is it worth it on a 19-20*2 weapon ?
For the duelist glove, I'll get it by level 9 in fighter, thanks ^^
(I actually hesitated going up to level 9 in fighter, in favor of the other PrCs, but scratch that, +3 att/dmg for two levels beats anything they can offer, so thanks again ^^)
Crit feats are always worth it, although that feat at level 11, Dazing Strike? (can't remember, brains going) also works VERY well. Crit feats are your 'extra special I love you' attacks, and when you get multiple attacks, work VERY nicely.
And as a human, you only have to spend one feat to get access to all of them!
Power Attack is the primary means of converting extra To hit into damage. Power Attack doesn't mean attacking like a brute...it means devoting the blow to power instead of control. In fencing terms, it would be a power lunge to impale someone instead of poking them in the shoulder...put your body behind it, instead of just your elbow. It's not brutishness, it's a tactic.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the quick reply again ^^
I'll look into those crit feats then ^^
I also agree with your definition of Power Attack, but it still doesn't sit well with me, combining it with weapon finesse and deft strike. You might call it nitpicking, but when you go into some extreme lengths to completely dissociate strength from your attack/damage output, bringing it back with a smile saying "Oh, and while I finesse my attack and damage the orc by dextrously striking a weak point, and add some precise damage by stiking that point precisely, I put power in my blow on top of that, sacrificing accuracy to squeeze out extra damage !" just won't sit well with me.
The thing is, in real life, you don't choose between strength and dexterity, every hit is a combination of both, so real life exemples tend not to work very well when describing a combat system, yet, if I had to find an anology, I would compare deft strike to placing your sword at the right place at the right time, and let your enemies' strength do the job for you, thus, the strength of your attack would be dependent on your ability to quickly and precisely use your enemies' power, you go full skill and you let them fill the rest of the equation. The better you predict, control, their power, the better your attack is.
Hence, using power in your attack would only screw with your timing, your control, your dexterity, and would hinder your attack, more than it would help it.
Yet, this is only my personal interpretation, you can easily say that in my way of seeing it, my point is true, but that my way of seeing it is just that, personal, and has no impact on the game everyone is playing.
So, let's go back to the rules ! In Pathfinder, unlike in real life, we can't use strength and dexterity at once, we have to choose. So, correct me if I am wrong, but, while it is not technically RAW, Power Attack gives a STRENGTH bonus to damage, no ? I know the damage is untyped, which allows it to stacl with the normal damage bonus to strength, but it grows if you wield a weapon 2 handed the same way your strength bonus grows, and, honestly, what kind of bonus can POWER ATTACK give xD ?
As you said, it's sacrificing accuracy to stike harder, with more strength (though not specifically in a brutish way).
And deft strike specifically notes that it is used INSTEAD of strength bonus to damage.
So yeah, by RAW you could stack power attack and deft strike, but I would never let that fly in one of my campaigns, and find it WAAAAAAAY too dubious to create a character that uses that combination.
So yeah, your point still stands, Aelryinth, and is taken, but I hope it makes my refusal to include Power Attack in my character a bit more understandable.
(And yet I have no issues with arguing with my GM to allow piranhah strike to be used with an AdS, go figure ! XD)
What do you mean, I'm a big bad hypocrite ? No, not at all... *shifting eyes*
IDIOOOOOT!
Yeah, yeah, I know. I need to update my guide to take the prestige class into account. Except honestly, there's nothing in the prestige class that modifies my guide in any way. It's a totally different class that just happens to share the same name.
And honestly, you're doing it "right" here: dipping the prestige class and then going into duelist. You've essentially used the prestige class to get dex to damage, and change the requirements for aldori dueling mastery from "pure feat tax" to "feat tax, but with decent feats." My only question is where is your crane style? There is no excuse for anyone going singleton not having crane style. At all. None. Nada. Zip. Make getting that a priority.
Also, You have combat expertise, dodge, and mobility. If you aren't picking up spring attack and whirlwind strike, you're missing out.
But yeah, even with these modifications you've fallen into every trap and you know it. The aldori aren't damage dealers, they're maneuver fighters, defensive walls, and with the new prestige class, debuffers. If you're trying to catch up on damage, you're gonna have a bad time.
Thanks for the feedback !
So, for the crane style, spring attack and whirlwind strike, I didn't take them yet because I don't have steel net, and I wasn't sure when I was going to get it, I thought I might have to take a few levels in duelist to grab a few goodies (and DAMAAAAGE) or maybe even Aldori Prc first for some easier dazzling display.
By the way, I would have liked your opinion : Is, when going Aldori PrC 4, taking Crane Style really necessary ? With Steel Net + Adaptative tactics net a -1 malus when fighting defensively. It becomes a 0 at Aldori PrC 8, but it leaves very, very few levels of duelist to do something about that damage...
The PrC is also clear, you lose some of the bonus it gives (deft strike actually) when making attacks with anything else than your AdS, natural attacks and unnarmed strikes included.
So is going with the style only to offset a -1 malus for 2 (or 3 ?) feats, really worthwile ?
About your build, I still believe that it is the right way to build a STR based Swordlord. The PrC merely allows the dex way not to blow hideously, while adding a nice few things. So yeah, an updated DEX Swordlord using the Swordlord PrC (and maybe the duelist, even ?) would be awesome !
But, yeah, I jumped into all the traps there ever was... I just wanted an Aldori the way the game implies they usually are, dex based and duelists. ^^
Consider buying a bane baldric. (10,000 gp).
This gives 5 rounds of bane per day.
If your party does not have a magic user who casts haste, consider buying boots of speed (12,000 gp).
These give 10 rounds of haste per day - the extra attack will greatly increase your damage.
Making your sword dueling (+1 bonus)- this gives a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on CMB when using your sword. This is from the Pathfinder Society Guide.
There is also the other dueling quality for weapons (+14,000 gp) that gives +4 init. & +2 to disarm.
Do you have any abilities that increase the max. dex bonus of your armour? A mithral breastplate has a max. dex bonus of +5 - you need dark cloth studded leather with a max. dex bonus of + 7.
Crane Style isn't really that exciting, but Crane Wing & Crane Riposte are both very good.
A weapon cord (Adventurer's Armory or Ultimate Equipment) is a great investment for only 1 sp - if you drop your weapon it is still attached to your wrist, and you can recover it with a swift action.
A locked gauntlet is another cheap method of preventing a disarm.
If you were a halfling, you could take the feat risky striker for extra damage. They also gain Cautious Fighter (Combat)- when fighting defensively or using total defense, your dodge bonus to AC increases by 2.
Iron will would be useful as your will save will be poor.
Thanks to Anarchitect for a great guide.
Good Luck!
Alberic Strein wrote: Thanks for the quick reply again ^^
I'll look into those crit feats then ^^
I also agree with your definition of Power Attack, but it still doesn't sit well with me, combining it with weapon finesse and deft strike. You might call it nitpicking, but when you go into some extreme lengths to completely dissociate strength from your attack/damage output, bringing it back with a smile saying "Oh, and while I finesse my attack and damage the orc by dextrously striking a weak point, and add some precise damage by stiking that point precisely, I put power in my blow on top of that, sacrificing accuracy to squeeze out extra damage !" just won't sit well with me.
The thing is, in real life, you don't choose between strength and dexterity, every hit is a combination of both, so real life exemples tend not to work very well when describing a combat system, yet, if I had to find an anology, I would compare deft strike to placing your sword at the right place at the right time, and let your enemies' strength do the job for you, thus, the strength of your attack would be dependent on your ability to quickly and precisely use your enemies' power, you go full skill and you let them fill the rest of the equation. The better you predict, control, their power, the better your attack is.
Hence, using power in your attack would only screw with your timing, your control, your dexterity, and would hinder your attack, more than it would help it.
Yet, this is only my personal interpretation, you can easily say that in my way of seeing it, my point is true, but that my way of seeing it is just that, personal, and has no impact on the game everyone is playing.
So, let's go back to the rules ! In Pathfinder, unlike in real life, we can't use strength and dexterity at once, we have to choose. So, correct me if I am wrong, but, while it is not technically RAW, Power Attack gives a STRENGTH bonus to damage, no ? I know the damage is untyped, which allows it to stacl with the normal damage bonus to strength, but it grows if...
Your attitude on Powr Attack is misplaced.
Power Attack is about committing to the blow, putting your full weight behind it, such that it's easier to read it coming, but it does more if it hits.
And while every style of swordplay uses a combo of str and coord, different sword styles clearly emphasize different combinations on how this is handled.
Head on over to wookiepedia and read up on the Jedi sword styles. They are all clearly based off real world examples of swordplay, but there's a definite emphasis within each style on the interplay. The Finesse Power Attack is "I have you!" where you lunge forward with your full body...and maybe the enemy can see it coming and slip aside in time, as opposed to just a flick-lunge where you're trying to just to hit and have the weapon do the work.
Agreed on Crane Style. If you're going one handed you MUST have this feat chain. It also works so well with spring attack it's not funny, and stacks when fighting defensively with Aldori bonuses.
===Aelryinth
Thanks again for the useful feedback, and thanks again to Aelryinth for taking the time to argue with me on that feat.
Phosphorus > Duely noted ! But is upping disarming strike that much really that useful ? Did I miss something ? Disarming seemed like a fine trick, but not worthy a main focus.
Crane style > I'm not exactly planning on going monk, however the feat definitely seem to prove useful, however, since i'm going the long way (by not dipping monk, nominately) Crane Style could be enough for my purposes : Eradicating that pesky malus while fighting defensively. While the other two feats are pure awesome in can, "You Vital strike me ? Oh you poor, poor fella..." Half of the bonus of crane riposte is wasted, and it only gives one AoO, which can be, awesomely enough, a disarm, which can screw a full attacking enemy HARD, yet, this is still, and yet again a bonus to defense. I find myself lagging behind way too hard damage wise, so fixing that should take priority. So Crane style is a must have as soon as I get steel net (well, not before fighter level 8 actually), but I believe the two other feats, while VERY NICE, could wait until I get something to help that damage.
Power attack > How is my attitude misplaced ? I mean, we can have fun all day long discussing power attacks, and actually, we're doing just that, and I'm actually enjoying it. However, if we take things back to the roots, meaning the feat description "you make exceptionally deadly attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength". Jedi mind tricks excepted, adding damage by virtue of striking accurately and then using a feat that sacrifices said accuracy for moar strength to add moar damage, all the while attacking using dex and not strength because we're finessing, using quick, precise movements instead of extremely fast powerful moves... But... Wait... Actually we are ! We ARE using those fast powerful moves which are straight down STR's alley. But we're still attacking and damaging with our DEX mod, because we are finessing (not hitting like a brute, sacrificing accuracy for MOAR POWER !!!) and striking deftly ! Wait, we're even adding precision damage from the duelist class, because we're so accurate !
And with all that being relevant on Dex, finesse, precision, and utterly ALIEN to STR, being even noted in our deft strike feature that it was to be used INSTEAD of STR modifier to damage, and thus, INCOMPATIBLE with STR modifier to damage, we are still adding untyped damage which comes from sacrificing accuracy, which is our att and twice damage source (without a single malus to those, of course) and STILL adding a modifier to damage which comes from HITTING HARDER (ie WITH MOAAAAR STRENGTH)
That. Will. NOT. Fly. With. Me.
EVER.
Then, to out me as a total and UTTER HYPOCRITE, while it doesn't fly with me at all, it actually flies with my GM and is, as previously stated, totally viable by RAW. Also, the party seemed to enjoy optimizing quite a bit, and the encounters were calibrated as such. So I lowered cha to 13, raised STR to 13, and took that cursed Power attack feat, because Piranha strike won't be allowed and because being some damn dead weight to the party does not sit well with me either.
Switch gripping from Anarchitect guide, here I come !
(Said GM still made a funny face when Erwan -my character- was hit with an enfeebling ray, dropping his strength by 8 points down to 5 and I retorted "I let go of my backpack to get rid of encumbrement, and keep at it, it doesn't lower my damage output by one point."
"Wait, attacking is not totally dissociated from strength" he said.
"I paid two feats and two PrCs to do just that, actually." was my answer.
Yeah, i concur he was quite surprised... Some points must not have been as clear as I thought they were... Here comes some crazy bartering with the GM again Q.Q
I actually agree with him of course, but so far, things were settled pretty much with "By RAW" and "By RAW", as far as I saw, my damage will not go down because of STR 5.)
Ps : Oh yeah, on the subject of power attacking, I tend to be a bit cautious, to me, striking once for some damage is more useful than striking 0 times for some awesome damage times 0, meaning 0 damage. So, at around which point should I power attack ? Is going from needing a dice 10 to hit with the first attack and a dice 15 with the second to a dice 13 (first) and a dice 18 (second) worth it ? What about going from needing 10 (first) 10 (haste) 15 (second) to 13/13/18 ?
I took the safe path, no power attack and a disarm on the second attack which only did 1d8+6, and was unable to drop a Dryder which already took some (a bit low) damage from a charge from the barbarian, with my full attack, even though all attacks landed and I even got a confirmed crit.
At next initiative, the dryder went down with a single arrow though...
So... More risks ?
IF pOwer attack was str based, there would be no bonus to damage, and it would elevate based on strength.
Power Attack is based on Skill...your BAB. You are sacrificing the sure hit for the increased damage. Your damage from your strength bonus remains unchanged...it is not a str bonus to damage, it's a way of turning your ability to hit something into the ability to hit something where it really hurts.
In 3.5, many people used Power attack to represent 'called shots'. 'I swing for the head!' Okay, take -3 to hit for +3 damage if you make it. From a finesse standpoint, that's exactly what it's like. Instead of poking him in the shoulder for ten points, you attempt a riskier move to drive your point into his lung. It's easier to parry and defend against, but if it lands, it certainly hits more. Rename it 'Critical Attack' if you must, because the flavor varies depending on the style.
==Aelryinth
Power Attacking is generally best used when you have a single attack, or your hit bonus is significantly higher then your opponent's AC. It's about converting excess TH into damage, after all.
If you're going to start relying on crits, then you probably don't want to Power Attack as often, because it's harder to confirm...unless you have Critical focus, of course.
Every point of power attack for an Aldori is +2 dmg.
Do a simple math exercise.
Figure out your base dmg and TH. D8 +17/+12, +9 dmg or whatever. Figure a target AC, let's say 25. You hit on an 8+/13+. 65%+40% is 105% chance to hit for normal damage on a full attack, so 13.5/attack.
If you power attack for -3 +6, you're at 11+/16+, or 75% chance to hit, with each attack potentiall 19.5 dmg, or 15 pts. By the math, you are slightly better off Power Attacking, and as AC gets lower (or your TH gets higher), the advantage will increase.
You should be able to calculate your breakpoint fairly easily, and there's actually Power Attack Calculators out there that even figure in crit % and the like.
One thing to point out...I think many of the Crit feats use Str to figure the save DC, but I could be wrong.
But just remember, as a human, you only need one feat to get access to all the Crit feats by BAB.
==Aelryinth
I still say that crane style is worth it without steel net. Steel net makes it AWESOME, but it works nicely without it. The duelist also gets an ability, elaborate duelist, that makes fighting defensively better. But the ability to just say NO to one melee attack per round is hella good. It shuts down True strike maneuver cheese, it shuts down Rend, it shuts down critical hits, and at worst it stops one attack per round cold. The trade off is that you don't get to two hand a weapon. Assuming you get the full feat tree, you're only taking a -1 to hit penalty for all that bonus AC and the hit negation. That's awesome.
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