Hello all,
I have always gravitated to melee or ranged character builds for some reason, and always away from skill monkeys and support and/or healers - I guess all the times I built what I called support builds like clerics, they ended up having STR 18, a reach weapon, and combat reflexes :D
But now I wish to change my ways - I want to build a REALLY supportive character, in terms of buffs, debuffs and healing - on top of this I would like to pile the possibility of being some sort of scholar type, like the advisor of the group (though not necessarily the face) - I am planning to go with this character for quite some time, and through a definitely hard series of adventures, so this would be a long term plan, but which starts at level one. Of course, if my character can pick up a reach weapon, or a mace and bash some faces in would be also lovely, but I honestly don't know if that is already stretching things too thin.
Now... I have looked at clerics that summon, clerics that selectively channel, clerics that inspire courage, bards that buff everyone, or themselves AND also others, I have looked at ranged inquisitors and mistery oracles of life, battle, etc. and now I am lost :D
Thing is, I would much like the character to be able to hold his own in a fight, BUT I want to play a support character mainly, if fighting skills fit great, if not, tough luck.
Some of my perks - may be incorrect perceptions but...
Clerics: They have so little skill points it just frustrates me.
Oracles: They don't channel
Bards: They are neither here nor there, they don't channel
Inquisitors: Aren't these made to hurt people? :D
Don't be too harsh on my perceptions, I am not biased against any character class - I am just throwing these out there to try and get my picture across ;)
Any feedback is welcome. Thanks.
Hello all,
I have always gravitated to melee or ranged character builds for some reason, and always away from skill monkeys and support and/or healers - I guess all the times I built what I called support builds like clerics, they ended up having STR 18, a reach weapon, and combat reflexes :D
But now I wish to change my ways - I want to build a REALLY supportive character, in terms of buffs, debuffs and healing - on top of this I would like to pile the possibility of being some sort of scholar type, like the advisor of the group (though not necessarily the face) - I am planning to go with this character for quite some time, and through a definitely hard series of adventures, so this would be a long term plan, but which starts at level one. Of course, if my character can pick up a reach weapon, or a mace and bash some faces in would be also lovely, but I honestly don't know if that is already stretching things too thin.
Now... I have looked at clerics that summon, clerics that selectively channel, clerics that inspire courage, bards that buff everyone, or themselves AND also others, I have looked at ranged inquisitors and mistery oracles of life, battle, etc. and now I am lost :D
Thing is, I would much like the character to be able to hold his own in a fight, BUT I want to play a support character mainly, if fighting skills fit great, if not, tough luck.
Some of my perks - may be incorrect perceptions but...
Clerics: They have so little skill points it just frustrates me.
Oracles: They don't channel
Bards: They are neither here nor there, they don't channel
Inquisitors: Aren't these made to hurt people? :DDon't be too harsh on my perceptions, I am not biased against any character class - I am just throwing these out there to try and get my picture across ;)
Any feedback is welcome. Thanks.
Consider a Master Summoner with an eidolon built as a skill monkey/scout. Your summoned creatures will prevent more damage than healing could ever recover, you'll have a lot of useful skills at your disposal and plenty of buff/battlefield shaping spells like Haste and the Pit line plus Teleport, True Seeing, Planeshift, Dominate Monster, etc.
Well you could play a life oracle who gains the ability to channel just like a cleric would and you get all sorts of goodies.
Life Oracle is probably the best straight-up healer you can be.
You'll be able to channel roughly as often as a Cleric (the fact that Charisma is your primary casting stat as opposed to a secondary stat for Clerics) and more spells per day to spend on Cures.
Plus an oracle isn't too shabby in a scrape, either. You can continue using a reach weapon to take AoOs and spend your own actions healing.
@Totentanz: I have actually ZERO knowledge about summoners, and also I have the feeling they would not be very welcome for the adventure in question. In any case, could you give more details regarding the playstyle itself? They do not command healing at all right? I would like to be able to drop some healing, not only hp, but removing conditions, etc...
@Namelessone: Ok, that may be an option, but what really differentiates them from a cleric then? :D Also, the "having to chose X, Y and Z" spells for your list - doesn't that actually gimp the level of healing you are capable of? I mean, you can surely heal hp, but what about the rest - stuff like remove curse, restoration, etc?
Thank you for the feedback so far guys :D
|
Channel is ok at best past level 5. So don't invest a lot in to it. Unless your planning on putting a lot of feats in to it. From your description Bard is by far the best way to get what you want. As you want healing(Check), Buff(Check), Debuff(Check. Really not the best option in this game system.), Knowledge(Check). Plus they can cover party face at the same time. Most people dislike the foppish bard. There are many ways to do performance in pathfinder. My personal favorite is it do oratory. That way yelling out battle commands is your performance giving it a in game effect. The one thing with a bard most people over look is going first. This is critical for a bard. As until they go there buffs are not up. As buffing the group is there main thing. Going after the other melees in the group dose not do you much good. This fact is compounded after level 7. When you can start your performance as a move action and still have a standard action to cast a buff spell. For example starting performance and casting haste, or good hope in the same round before the other characters go. Makes a huge impact on the flow of battle from there forward.
@Big Lemon: I can picture the Oracle healing left and right to no end, but I reiterate my question from before - when getting to higher levels, and the need to at least be able to put out stuff like Remove Curse, or Dismissal or Death Ward, can the Oracle keep up to par with the diminished spell list? Won't this impact HARD on his ability to do other stuff, like buffing for example?
@Seriphim84: Could you perhaps detail a little more why you would say that? :D I did have a look at the Cloistered Cleric and I really like the concept for what I had in mind - may be a good option indeed
@Rory: I did check the Misfortune, and maybe I am looking at it wrong but... Is it THAT good as a debuff? I mean, you have a 50/50 chance overall of worsening or improving the roll right? If I understood correctly, Page of Spell Knowledge are a way to pay cash so as to kind of having more spells available for a spontaneous caster than he would usually have, correct? Does it mean I can pay 5000gp and have 5 extra level one spells? Because if it does, it sounds REALLY nice actually.
@LazarX: Another curse from me usually playing martial oriented characters - I know very little about witches, though they always seem to be powerful characters whenever I have come across them in my group. However, aren't the healing hexes limited to something like once every 24 hours or something? (Apologies for the ignorance)
@Calagnar: Ok, I admit it, I have always had an eye towards the bard. I think the party face role will be close to irrelevant in the kind of setting we are going to be playing in, but in any case it is cool all around just to be charismatic. Regarding the actual support - Inspire Courage is an amazing all rounder in terms of attack and defense, no doubts about that one. But Countersong seems too specific, Distraction ditto, etc, even though further along the levels he gets some nasty Performance abilities. But now, the thing is they don't channel, they don't heal spontaneously, so they have to actually CHOSE the healing spell, and this is a terrible limitation... My question here is, how much can this really be offset with magical items like wands, scrolls and such?
I apologize for the questions on top of questions, but this is uncharted territory for me :D
And out of what I have been digging around, what are your thoughts on the Evangelist? I mean... ALMOST all the goodness from the cleric, though channel is gimped, paired with bard performance? Looks good no?
Question: The bard abilities he does NOT have, do you think are a huge loss?
|
|
@Calagnar: Ok, I admit it, I have always had an eye towards the bard. I think the party face role will be close to irrelevant in the kind of setting we are going to be playing in, but in any case it is cool all around just to be charismatic. Regarding the actual support - Inspire Courage is an amazing all rounder in terms of attack and defense, no doubts about that one. But Countersong seems too specific, Distraction ditto, etc, even though further along the levels he gets some nasty Performance abilities. But now, the thing is they don't channel, they don't heal spontaneously, so...
In PFSP my bard is level 8. I have not come to any point. That need more healing then I could do with wand, and cure light on my spell list. The only thing you really need in general for most settings is a wand of lesser restoration. This is true if your a full divine caster as well. You might get a wand of remove X if you encounter it a lot. Over all though it dose not come up enough to spend the gold on it. My bard for PFSP is set up as a primary buffer, along with combat, and skills including traps. So he can cover many roles in a party due to his build. And after a few more levels I'll start stocking up on emergency scrolls like restoration, and raise dead. Any divine caster should have them on scrolls as well as you do not need them enough. To keep them on your spell list at all times.
The Evangelist is ok. For me it's more about how many jobs that one bard can cover. A evangelist covers divine caster, and buffing. Where as a bard can cover buffing, healing, and skills(including traps even magic traps with the right 2nd level spell.). To me the bard is just a much better plat from for versatility.
@Big Lemon: I can picture the Oracle healing left and right to no end, but I reiterate my question from before - when getting to higher levels, and the need to at least be able to put out stuff like Remove Curse, or Dismissal or Death Ward, can the Oracle keep up to par with the diminished spell list? Won't this impact HARD on his ability to do other stuff, like buffing for example?
They can have those spells without a problem. Just take a look at the Life mystery; it gives you every healing and important status removal buff, leaving the rest of your spell list to be whatever you want. Does it impact your ability to have other spells? Of course it does, the same way having those spells prepared impact's a Cleric's daily list (because even on rest days, you can get a surprise attack).
@Rory: I did check the Misfortune, and maybe I am looking at it wrong but... Is it THAT good as a debuff? I mean, you have a 50/50 chance overall of worsening or improving the roll right? If I understood correctly, Page of Spell Knowledge are a way to pay cash so as to kind of having more spells available for a spontaneous caster than he would usually have, correct? Does it mean I can pay 5000gp and have 5 extra level one spells? Because if it does, it sounds REALLY nice actually.
It's basically the same mechanic as advantage and disadvantage in D&D Next, Misfortune being equivalent to disadvantage and Fortune being equivalent to advantage. It can be a potentially very useful buff/debuff, but it isn't always. And yes, pages of spell knowledge work exactly that way; 1000 gp per first level spell known, 4000 gp per second level spell, etc.
@LazarX: Another curse from me usually playing martial oriented characters - I know very little about witches, though they always seem to be powerful characters whenever I have come across them in my group. However, aren't the healing hexes limited to something like once every 24 hours or something? (Apologies for the ignorance)
It's true that the healing hexes can only be used once every 24 hours, but you also have access to all the important healing and status removal spells (can't remember if they're all on the Witch's list, but you can get to them through the Healing patron), while knowing as many spells as you want. Very useful.
@Calagnar: Ok, I admit it, I have always had an eye towards the bard. I think the party face role will be close to irrelevant in the kind of setting we are going to be playing in, but in any case it is cool all around just to be charismatic. Regarding the actual support - Inspire Courage is an amazing all rounder in terms of attack and defense, no doubts about that one. But Countersong seems too specific, Distraction ditto, etc, even though further along the levels he gets some nasty Performance abilities. But now, the thing is they don't channel, they don't heal spontaneously, so...
They may not channel, but they have spontaneous casting, and can thusly cast any spell they know spontaneously (including cure spells). Later they also get Inspire Greatness, which gives 12+2xCon temporary HP, among other things, to the entire party. At the point you get it, that's probably 18-24 free HP every combat.
As well, you can have a fantastic UMD score to use scrolls or wands as you see fit. And note: even though you cannot use the item again for 24 hours when you roll a 1 with UMD, you don't automatically fail the check. This ends up with one person getting the healing immediately, and everyone else gets the same wait time as you would with the Cleric-who-prepares-it-tomorrow.
Bards have the skills and the buffing down pat, and some debuting and healing abilities. They seem to cover most of what you want.
Ok, I'll go with my gut and preference and follow along with the bard option - keeping in mind I want a support character, I have built it at level one like follows, and would like your input on how it looks, mainly regarding feat and spell progression, and the second trait.
Aldiran
Azata-Blooded Aasimar (Musetouched) Bard 1
CG Medium Outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +3
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Shortsword +1 (1d6+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +2 (1d6/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance (standard action) (7 rounds/day, bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (1 targets) (dc 13), bardic performance: inspire courage +1
Spell-Like Abilities Glitterdust (1/day)
Bard Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Saving Finale (DC 14), Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Daze (DC 13), Mage Hand, Read Magic, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 17
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Lingering Performance
Traits Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb -1, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (planes) +3, Knowledge (religion) +3, Perception +5, Perform (comedy) +5, Perform (dance) +9, Perform (oratory) +9, Ride +0, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +4, Swim -1, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Gnome
SQ bardic knowledge
Other Gear Studded leather armor, Buckler, Arrows (20), Shortbow, Shortsword, 79 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (7 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (1 targets) (DC 13) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2 rds after you stop concentrating.
Thanks! :D
I might use an offensive spell like sleep/grease or a utility one like silent image, but no other major criticisms.
Yeah, I was actually pondering the option as I took a second look at the character build. Grease at low levels seems like it can turn some tides :D
For bards, a lot of buffing is taken care of by inspire competence. Saving finale isn't bad, but it's reactive -- it only helps if (a) someone needs to make a saving throw and (b) they fail. It might be better to do something that shapes the encounter to your desires, or finishes it before your friends need to make saving throws.
Saving finale can be really useful at higher levels, though, so keep it in mind.
And CLW is not a bad thing to have, but at higher level you'll want to swap it out, because you'll have a wand of it. Again, might be handy to have a spell like sleep or charm person that can swing encounters before wounds happen.
This sort of thing is very campaign-dependent, however. You do differentpells if you are always fighting, versus always negotiating, versus always trap-finding or problem solving, versus some mixture of the above.
With low-level bards, especially, you have very few spells, so unless you know exactly what you're getting into, it's probably better to have spells that are flexible, useful Ina variety of situations. Later on you have enough spells that you can take ones that are really good but only in particular situations.
And keep tactical options in mind -- frequently, aid another will be a very good buffing action, better than anything else you might pull off.
I have a feeling this one will be of the "always fighting" kind ;)
Then I'd probably try to have sleep or grease as one of your spells, and I'd probably work on a Dazzling Display build. Mass intimidate everyone, then buff your party, then win.
Would you say that the Dazzling Display build is better than taking the performance related feats, like Lingering Performance, Extra Performance, etc?
I agree with tonyz about grease or sleep over saving finale. I like grease. Also, I misread Musetouched as Mustachioed, which made me do a double take..
If you take Lingering Performance, you don't need Extra Performance.
And you don't need Extra Performance past about level 5, anyway. You're very unlikely to run out of performance rounds unless it's a very unusual day.
@Rory:
Not a moot point at all, for me this is all a learning process - after taking a second read of the Misfortune Hex, I think now I understand what you mean.
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
However, I do think that the two hexes work in very different ways - take a look above and let me know, but the misfortune mistery does not seem as useful as the Hex itself.
I actually like the apparently (I say apparently, because I have never actually played one) stronger ability of the Oracle of Life as a healer, when compared to the bard - and probably combining the Pages of Spell Knowledge with the Life Mistery Bonus spells, most of the healing will probably be covered - and he actually can channel, which is obviously a good thing for a character based on Charisma. He starts to look more and more like a cleric :D
Of course nothing beats the sheer knowledge brought to the table by the bard, and the support it provides in itself, but hey one cannot have everything. And with the Dangerously curious trait, and the bonus from Charisma, I don't think the Oracle will have much trouble with UMD, which is great - I'm liking the idea more and more, except for the dual cursing.... That hurts :/
Thoughts?
Ok, so in pondering the Life Oracle, here is what I came up with - for some reason I was unable to add the ill-omen to the spell list, maybe because it is a witch spell?
I have made her a dual cursed oracle but I am pondering dropping the hex and going with a single curse - and by the way, why not Tongues?
Aldiran
Female Peri-Blooded Aasimar (Emberkin) Oracle (Dual-Cursed Oracle) 1
CG Medium Outsider (native)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +2 shield)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +1, Ref +0, Will +2
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Weakness oracle's curses (haunted, lame)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 15 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash -2 (1d4+2/x2) and
. . Heavy mace +2 (1d8+2/x2) and
. . Longspear +2 (1d8+3/x3)
Ranged Light crossbow +0 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Pyrotechnics (1/day)
Oracle (Dual-Cursed Oracle) Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (4/day) Protection from Evil, Bless, Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Resistance, Stabilize, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Extra Revelation
Traits Dangerously Curious
Skills Acrobatics -6 (-14 jump), Climb -4, Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist -6, Fly -6, Heal +4, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +6, Ride -6, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +8, Stealth -6, Swim -4, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ mysteries (life), oracle channel positive energy 1d6 (5/day) (dc 14), revelations (misfortune, oracle channel positive energy)
Other Gear Scale mail, Heavy steel shield, Heavy mace, Light crossbow, Longspear, 28 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Lame One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th
Misfortune (Ex) At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the o
Oracle Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (5/day) (DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Thoughts?
|
Sorry I completely lost track of this thread :-P
@Seriphim84: Could you perhaps detail a little more why you would say that? :D I did have a look at the Cloistered Cleric and I really like the concept for what I had in mind - may be a good option indeed
So here is the basic reasoning for suggesting these domains:
Law: Touch of law is an amazing ability that you can use to buff without wasting spells. Most Melee guys are well built enough that they can hit on an 11 vs anything within there general CR range (AP+3). This power just never looses effectiveness. Also Chaotic is the second most common type of enemy in pathfinder (after evil) so the second power will get lots of use. Though you can switch out to the subdomain of archon for a great debuffs and some buff spells that you would be memorizing anyways.
Heroism: It is hard to understate just how good this domain is for buffing. You get touch of glory for great diplomacy/bluff/intimidate checks. At 8th level you get a swift action aura that is an amazing buff and you get 3 of the best buff spells in the game. None of which appear on the clerics spell list: Bless Weapon, Heroism and greater heroism. You also get several excellent domain spells for joining the fight.
If you go with the Cloistered Cleric I would select heroism as your domain. The powers would give you the most of what you are looking for.
As to the oracle idea, I think you would avoid the duel cursed oracle. you just give up to much of what you want. But given your varied goals for this character I would skip oracle altogether. only exception being the Lore Oracle. It gives you the knowledge you want. But I would skip it too because you want a character with many skills and oracles are designed to be specialists.
First of all, thanks a lot for the feedback so far guys - I've been having fun creating characters and learning in the process.
Now for a few additional concerns of mine, for those still in the mood to answer:
- I really like the Cloistered cleric knowledge backbone - it works seamlessly into the logic I had though for the character, plus he channels, plus he commands cleric spells and spontaneous cures BUT, and this one really hurts, lacking a spell per level is really dreadful right?
- The Law Domain: I don't want to get back to the commonplace of clerics, and I do honestly believe the Touch of Law to be a great asset, but isn't the Luck Domain really better? I am looking at both the spell list and the Granted powers and it does look like it. Maybe not at level 8, but I am still a long way from that :D (probably starting at level 3)
- The Heroism Domain: Honestly, the spells, though most of the Glory ones are available to the cleric, the Heroism ones are amazing, as is the 8th level power, but the one at 1st level seems kinda lackluster. Apart from that I like it.
- Adding Dangerously Curious, a decent Charisma to the mix, and a couple of wands and/or scrolls may compensate or not for some of the issues above - actually, what is preventing me from getting any of the Heroism spells from wands when I get there? ;)
@Seriphim84: Why do you believe I am losing a lot when going to the dual cursed oracle? On the other hand I agree that the Oracle per se, will probably never be comparable to a cloistered cleric as far as Knowledges go, but since all is built around Cha, may get more mileage out of UMD, channels, etc right?
Most domains balance out a bit -- great power, lackluster spells; or wonderful spells, not-very-useful power. You just have to decide which is more useful to you most of the time. And honestly, first-level domain powers don't matter very much by the time you're getting third-level spells or so.
I've been playing around with this a little bit - I have to say that Visions of Madness from the Madness Domain has got to be just about the best debuff in the game - and the fact that it can also be used as a buff makes it even more valuable.
I'm considering the Evangelist as a pure support character - you get all of the benefits of an equal level Bard's Inspire Courage as well as the Visions of Madness, healing ability from Channel AND Aura of Madness as well. Buffing, De-buffing and healing all in one nice tidy package.
The fact that Heroism's level 8 ability is a swift action is crazy - an 8th level Evangelist could stack Inspire Courage as a move action (+2 attack, +2 damage), Aura of Heroism as a swift action (+2 attack, +2 saves, +2 skill checks) and cast Blessing of Fervor (extra attack each round or +2 attack, +2 AC and +2 Reflex saves) as a standard action all in the opening round of combat and then devote themselves to healing/maintenance for the very short remainder of combat. All bonuses stack and Blessing of Fervor even gives the casters a little something as well.