After having just read Dune (again) and currently DM'ing a 5 character group of Level 3-4 PCs, I was considering putting them up against some famous warriors from movies/literature.
First off, has anyone some suggestions for opponents? Also, has anyone ever created a Sardaukar for Pathfinder?
Thanks!
One well known example from history would be the Immortals from the Greco-Persian Wars era
There need not be anything special in terms of feats for these type of warriors. I imagine just making the typical Sardukar a level 3 fighter superbly equipped (with officers at level 5 and senior officers at level 7+) would already overmatch just about any levied armies that could take to the field against them.
"The Sardaukar were said to match the martial abilites of a 10th level Ginaz warrior..." So make them 10th level warriors.
"The Sardaukar were said to match the martial abilites of a 10th level Ginaz warrior..." So make them 10th level warriors.
Source?
SARDAUKAR: the soldier-fanatics of the Padishah Emperor. They were men from an environmental background of such ferocity that it killed six out of thirteen persons before the age of eleven. Their military training emphasized ruthlessness and a near-suicidal disregard for personal safety. They were taught from infancy to use cruelty as a standard weapon, weakening opponents with terror. At the apex of their sway over the affairs of the Universe, their swordsmanship was said to match that of the Ginaz tenth level and their cunning abilities at in-fighting were reputed to approach those of a Bene Gesserit adept. Any one of them was rated a match for any ten ordinary Landsraad military conscripts. By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.
--from the glossary in Dune (1965).
Yeah, see I don't see that as the same as being 10th level in D&D terms. I'd put them in the 4-6 range, with good ability scores by the time of Dune. I don't equate the training level of the Ginaz swordmasters to Pathfinder level.
YMMV though.
In developing D&D from medieval wargaming, the idea of a "10th level fighting man" was that one guy would be worth 10 normal soldiers -- just as the fireball supposedly emulated the cannon shot rules they were using. Of course, when you implement the actual rules, a 10th level fighter can kill 10 normal (1st level) guys without batting an eye, but still, the idea was originally there.
Dune was written like 10 years earlier than that, and maybe Arnaz and Gygax used that quote as inspiration. It would be fun to keep that equivalence as a nod to nostalgia, but yeah, in 3.X game terms it wouldn't work very well. Instead, we could use a CR equivalence: 1 Sardaukar = ten 1st level (CR 1/3) warrior conscripts = a 4th level fighter, using the chart on page 101 of the 3.0 DMG (substitute PF chart as needed).
I can see Ranger, but rogue?!?
No offense, but how often does a typical rogue kick the butt of a typical and well equipped fighter? Fremen are supposed to easily defeat Sardaukar. Rogues don't typically easily defeat fighters on equal footing.
Why does stealth automatically equate rogue? There are many stealth based classes or class archetypes that have stealth as a class skill - rangers, monks, even barbarians are all good stealth classes and needn't any levels in rogue to be an effective stealth based martial class.
IMO, rogue is not even a close choice for fremen.
I assumed that quote about 10th level had nothing to do with "D&D" levels, but rather more like Japanese martial arts, a "Ginaz tenth level" would be something like a tenth degree black belt in Karate. Although not specifically Karate, but the same general idea. In other words, without knowing for sure, I took it to mean that "Ginaz tenth level" meant the absolute highest combat skill it's possible to attain in that style of combat.
In Pathfinder terms, that would be 20th level, since "style of combat" would equate to class and no class has more than 20 levels.
One guy fighting ten equally armed conscripts in an open battle, assuming those conscripts have at least basic training in their weapon, in the real world, not RPGs, not movies, not books, is pretty much impossible. The human brain cannot track that much danger and avoid all injury, and even minor weapon injuries can end the fight quickly. Anyone who can pull it off is miraculously lucky and unbelievably good. I think Frank Herbert viewed it this way too, so saying they were a match for 10 conscripts is, realistically, extremely amazing praise. (by counter argument, if he meant it like D&D would mean it, any 5th or 6th level fighter could do this easily so it's such a meaningless praise it's not worth printing it).
Those Sardaukar were seriously deadly.
They seem to be extremely fierce looking but ineffectual “minions” ala 4th edition, and which exist solely as strawmen to show how great the Fremen are.
So, they should look crazy dangerous but be dropped in a single good hit from your parties tanks/strikers etc.
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The fremen didn't generally kill sardauker in open battle in dune - given the difference in gear, that was suicide. They tended to ambush them and kill them very quickly that way...which is why sneak attack and rogue levels aren't at all out of line. Suprise + Win init and you've a really good shot at taking down a fighter of equal (low) level.
==Aelryinth
I think the Fremen fit the bill of high level Rangers.
Consider: Favored Terrain of desert
Favored Enemy of Sardaukar (or Harkkonnen)
Endurance as a (free) Feat vs. hot climates
Animal Companion: Sandworm
With a Sandworm it makes alot of sense to take Boon Companion Feat.
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Given that most conscript soldiers are going to be low-level warriors:
- Foot Soldier = Warrior 1
- Caravan Guard = Fighter 2
- Guard = Warrior 3
- Guard Officer = Fighter 4
- Cavalry = Fighter 6
- Watch Captain = Fighter 7
Being an even match for 10 of them shouldn't be hard. They're going to be Fighter 2 or Warrior 3 at best, with average HP and stats, and low-level gear. A single Cavalry or Watch Captain shouldn't have a difficult time fighting against them, even if his gear is matched to the upper level conscripts (average NPC Fighter 2-3 gear). If your conscripts are all Warrior 1s, then taking them out shouldn't require more than a Fighter 4 or Fighter 5. Especially considering that Sardaukar have high-end Imperial gear.
To take that out, you have the Fremen: skilled warriors who fight using guile, guerrilla tactics, superior knowledge of the terrain and superior conditioning. For that, you could probably do it with the following:
Ranger 4, Rogue 3
- Endurance
- Favored Terrain (desert)
- Favored Enemy (Sardaukar)
- Combat Style (choice)
- Hunter's Bond (probably companions, with some taking bonded Sandworm)
- Sneak Attack 2d6
- Evasion
- Trap Sense
- Rogue Talent (choice)
Given the right circumstances, that build will probably wipe the floor with an equally armed Fighter 7, especially if you do them in groups for flank-buddies. In a straight-up fight, they may not do as well, but the Fremen didn't often engage in straight-up fights. If you want them to completely overpower the Sardaukar, increase the Ranger levels.
Just a thought experiment.
Dark Sun had high stats because you had sub standard gear. You needed the high stats to make up for the crap you weren't wielding.
==Aelryinth