Goblin Squad Member
|
It is customary for there to be a mini-map always displayed in the UI but I think it is arguably unnecessary. I do think the player should be able to call up a map of the area that offers a 'zoom-in' function keyed to the scroll-wheel of the mouse and plus/minus keys of the keyboard. However I also think it would be better to use a fog-of-war mechanic on the map to occlude areas that have not been visited in order to encourage exploration. At the same time players should be able to inform one another of locations (such as settlements) and other significant landmarks. I would propose that when shared or when bestowed by quests such locations should have icons that appear superimposed on the 'fogged' portion of the map for the player to go find.
What are your thoughts in this and related matters? Do we really need a mini-map obscuring our screen when looking out on the world? Should the map be obscured where we have not yet been?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd support a togglable minimap. Let people who want to turn it off do so. I'm not sure whether fog of war encourages exploration, or just convinces people to go get the terrain map someone posted on the internet in the first month. Sure, it won't have settlements on it, but I wouldn't be surprised if people start logging "known dungeon spawn locations" and other fluid things like that. I think something like what City of Heroes had would be better. There was a fog, but you could still see the base terrain through it. It hid the map markers for things like landmarks and points of interest, instead.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Being, I like the idea!
I would add, I think a player should only be able to use map functions when they have a map in their inventory.
I'd love for maps to be a commodity crafted by players and sold. Full area maps might be a very valuable commodity indeed.
Also, maybe have maps able to only hold a limited number of tiles (12?). If you wanted to be able to look at the entire "game space", you'd need more than one map.
I'm thinking the skill would be Cartography. If a player had a blank map in their inventory* and map tools (quill, ink, compass, etc), the map would draw automatically as they moved around the environment. Also, I'd like for players to be able to make notes on maps and add basic symbols (really basic).
I know this would probably require programmer time that might be better spent on other things, but as someone who LOVES exploring, I would love something like this.
* Perhaps 'slotted' in some fashion, since I know slots are going to have a value in terms of prioritizing what to place in them.
PS - Of course, as Dario said, maps put up on websites might make this element pointless, but I'd still love it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Probably worth pointing this out.
I would really like there to be a huge system for map manipulation. So rather than selling a map to another person, you'd sell them information that you've gathered and it would appear on their map. Your character's map would be a way of keeping a whole lot of information organized.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...to use a fog-of-war mechanic on the map to occlude areas that have not been visited...
What are your thoughts on a two-level fog-of-war? The first is complete black for "never visited", and the second is "greyed out", for "haven't been there lately"? Both can be for either large or small maps, of course.
The second level would be useful so you'd know if you were headed into the mountains, for example, but you wouldn't know if someone's built a new settlement at your destination.
EDIT: oops, Dario got there first, and I missed it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of the things I don't like about fog-of-war is that it creates an incentive to reveal every little dot that's obscured. EverQuest 2 did this with their maps, and it results in "bizarre behavior" like walking across the zone in a grid-search pattern just to clear away the fog-of-war.
I would prefer a map that had lots of points of interest on it that each had information attached such as who got the information (did I go there myself, or did I buy that info from another character), and when that information was added to my map.
Alternatively, instead of using a black or grey fog-of-war, the game could simply show the map area as a large expanse of forest, where clearings with towns are revealed as those towns are discovered. Imagine a map of an "ocean" that shows nothing but water until you discover an island, at which point that island is shown on the map where there used to be only water.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Alternatively, instead of using a black or grey fog-of-war, the game could simply show the map area as a large expanse of forest, where clearings with towns are revealed as those towns are discovered. Imagine a map of an "ocean" that shows nothing but water until you discover an island, at which point that island is shown on the map where there used to be only water.
I've used something like this in maps I've created. Instead of the fog of war, you assume that everything you can't see is like what you most recently saw in that direction. Plains, forest, hills, mountains, water, it doesn't matter. Everything beyond that point is the same until proven otherwise.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think it would be good to allow the portions of the map revealed as limited by how far you could see from the locations you've been rather than just a set distance from your current location. In heavy forest only the current hex or subhex, but on an open plain maybe a four subhex radius, and if you climb a tall hill much more than that even adjacent forests because your vantage point is above the treetops.
Alternatively, instead of using a black or grey fog-of-war, the game could simply show the map area as a large expanse of forest, where clearings with towns are revealed as those towns are discovered. Imagine a map of an "ocean" that shows nothing but water until you discover an island, at which point that island is shown on the map where there used to be only water.
This is a great idea.
I support Nihimon's suggestion. It's always a pain on Minecraft to fill out my maps, and it looks silly to those watching.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... it discourages exploring to explore in favor of "achieving" exploration.
How so? I'm not suggesting there be Achievements tied to discovering each of these POIs. I'm not even suggesting that the important thing is that there are lots of POIs. Rather, I was trying to say it was important to me that those POIs "each had information attached". I don't see how that discourages "exploring to explore".
I think you may be reading more into my statement than is really there.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"Lots of POIs" can work well if handled properly. Skyrim has an open, but limited geographically, world, but still packs in lots of places to "go do stuff".
Some people found it a bit too packed, but I enjoyed exploring, looking for a POI I knew was out there somewhere, and wondering what'd be there waiting for me. In PFO, I'd prefer to learn of the existence of a POI (one I'd not previously found myself) from another player and then have it appear on my map(s).
Being able to teach others where to find POIs is the cherry on top, and will be a fun part of being in The Seventh Veil.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In PFO, I'd prefer to learn of the existence of a POI (one I'd not previously found myself) from another player and then have it appear on my map(s).
That's pretty much what I had in mind. I was attempting to mirror Ryan's ideas.
I don't think I understood it in the context of your original post, which was Fog-of-War. If everything is broken down into a POI and it's surrounding area, once you walk into an area with a POI it becomes explored. This is akin to walking into a city and immediately knowing where everything is.
Not even remotely what I had in mind, and certainly not what I was trying to describe. But I understand how difficult it is to explain yourself clearly in forums.
My language about POIs that had information attached to them was meant to be in contrast to Jazzlvraz's suggestion to "grey out" the areas you hadn't been to recently.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In my mind, there's two types of FOW, terrain (the lay of the land, hiding the actual map features like hills, rivers, etc) and activity (POIs, like towns, inns, encampments). Terrain FOW makes almost no sense to me in the environment of this game. The absolute maximum distance is approximately 16 miles, that's corner to corner of the rectangle. A relative elevation of 170' is all that's required to put the horizon at 16 miles. If you're centrally located on the map, it only requires a relative elevation of 25'. POI FOW makes a *lot* of sense though. Moreso in this game than in most MMOs. Settlements will change, new structures are built and demolished, faction control of areas will change.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Terrain fog and POI fog are very different than troop movement fog. If a scout could burst into a general's command tent to update the general's map table with the latest confirmed location of an enemy unit, that would be pretty cool. Of course, the size of the map and the movement speed of units vs scouts would determine whether this idea is practical. If units can move as fast as scouts, then it wouldn't help.
|
Why don't we approach this from a PC perspective in Golarion.
Lets say KarlBob has 3 Craft Skills Slotted to his 7-10 or wherever they will be put in the end. Each of these is set for Cartography, and he has the supplies to create maps at hand. Lets assume skills for crafting professions have a quality just like everything else in the game, and each ability allows him to do something different in the map-making area.
To start he is going to need material to make it on, and with. So lets assume he uses typical silk screen process timber <Parchment> with a QR(Quality Rating) of 50, and <Ink> that has the same QR, so we assume a low "level" or QR final result.
The first skill could be as simple as "Map," and it takes 1 minute to do, and allows your PC to (While not otherwise being occupied or in combat) sketch out a pretty rough 2-d map of all the areas he can visually see. This would be like a rolled up treasure map with landmarks, terrain, and roads marked in pretty simplistic form. The scale of the map you are working on also depends highly on how much you can visually see at the time. This would be the kind of map you'd find in most poor travelers pockets, or even laying out in the field. Without context it might be difficult to even tell where the map is supposed to represent.
The second, more advanced skill, allows you to make notations, put icons, and accurate measure and label, and even increase the size, or "scale" of the map to so accommodate more information. Included with this could be a feature to allow players (With the skill) to "graft" of "stitch" more than one map together, given they are geographically adjacent. These will obviously require more expensive or higher QR goods such as more paper, better or different color inks, and even waterproofing supplies. Doing this kind of work would likely take your character at LEAST an in game hour, or about 15 minutes real time.
Lets say Karl has been playing a Map-Maker for 2 years now, and he has earned a high level skill to slot for his profession. Something along the lines of being able to craft any given QR item 1 time per day (Or Refresh depending on how powerful it is) quickly (Say 6-10 seconds, to instantaneously outside combat), and so Karl decides to <Copy> one of his own maps, that he spent weeks putting together by traveling, sketching, taking notes, adjusting settlement lines during war, and fighting for his life just to make and sell. Now, he has a second nearly pristine Map, that is 10x15 Hexes in size, has an easy legend, good detail for all the important landmarks, towns, and even possibly hidden caches and hideouts. I figure at this point Karl has access to QR 200+ materials, and this map will end up being extremely valuable. There is even precedent for craftsman of this level to enchant their goods, and I expect that an Magical Map would be JUST as valuable as a Magical Helmet.
Nothing a player needs should be impossible to create in my opinion. I know NPCs will supply the majority of crafting goods and coin, but if other more tangible goods that can reasonable be created by players are relegated to an automated system to make it "easier" for players, then I feel the intent of the game will have been violated. Plus there is nothing to say that any given character can start off with a really rough map, and a skill to update that map as he travels, nobody should be without SOME kind of ability to keep north strait, but that doesn't mean the everyone should have the same, perfectly strait, automatically updating real-time map data beamed strait into your characters invisible, unlootable, map, coin, and threaded gear plot-hole bag/mind.
TL:DR, People should be able to get lost in PFOL, and <Maps> are a system that can easily be placed in the hands of the players, allowing for even more variety and specialized nature for any given PC.
PS. I like the idea that you can lose your Map if you die without it Threaded, or "Carried" in any case, rather, the <Map> should be (Like almost everything else) an actual in game, crafted good that can be bought, sold and lost.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I expect one world map and 'local maps' for each hex.
But what info would be useful to have on maps? What info would you pay to have?
-Geographic points of interest? Rivers, forests and mountains should we more or less known from the start.
-Natural resources? now we're talking. If a hex must be surveyed by a skilled person to estimate potential resource levels, that could be valuable knowledge.
-Monsters/escalation cycles and dungeon sites? If cycles take a week or more, there may be a market for knowing where to find certain mobs. If they change faster, the info is already too old when you get it.
-Settlements and hex ownership? yup! Especially if they keep being burned down and pop up again in new places. Must have for traders, bandits and other adventurers.
-Detailed maps of enemy settlement layout? Gold mine!!
the problem with maps as economic items is that the same info is easily communicable out-of-game.
unless the maps actually interact with ability mechanics, then reading a map in-game is no more useful than reading one out-of-game.
like GW's approach to most of these out-of-game exploits, making the in-game options correspond to what could be done out-of-game seems the 'safest' bet to avoid exploits (which in this case, would be free or less-cost sharing of maps, out-of-game). certainly the market for this would be very weak if identical info can be found out-of-game.
we also have to consider that anybody can create a new character of any alignment, and go anywhere on the map, and join any settlement with no obvious connection to other characters. any means that GW enacts to enable correlation of different alts linked to an account will just be bypassed by people using different credit cards, or simply coordinating with friends. with an available character in any part of the world you want, you can find out the layout of any area and pass that info on to anybody you want, to apply to characters who may be effectively banned from that area.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There are places in the world where you will get arrested or even killed if caught taking measurements, pacing off a distance, or taking pictures. And let's face it...information control is a trademark of a paranoid and oppresive society (North Korea, anyone?).
That being said, cartography should be a robust career path, with several skills involved. Anyone can wander the land, but to really know where you are, where you have been, and where you are going is a pretty profound statement in RL or PFO.
Creating the materials to draw a map (animal hides, paper, etc...), quills, various colors of ink, protective containers or bookbinding materials are all included in the creation process.
So there should be a market for buying and selling hardcopy maps. As for your personal minimap, your known travels should fill in an otherwise darkened area, and over time that discovered area would cloud over again if you had not traveled there in say, one game year (three months real time).