Even after more than a decade of playing 3.X, 4E and Pathfinder, I sometimes still find myself baffled by certain “start of combat” situations. Surprise, initiative, awareness, stealth – it all becomes a blur. So I’ve decided to post two situations from recent play and see how those of you with a firmer handle on things cope with them.
1) A party of PCs is resting in a dungeon, when they suddenly hear loud barking in the distance, rapidly drawing closer. The PCs draw their bows and aim at the only entrance into their resting spot. How does this play out, assuming the dogs that are racing towards them know the PCs are there (a druid told them / they have picked up their scent)?
My problem: Technically both sides are aware of the other, even though they haven’t seen each other yet. So no surprise round. But did combat start already? If so, then the dogs aren’t flat-footed when they round the corner and are treated to a hail of arrows. This seems weird to me. Also, when exactly is initiative rolled in this example? As soon as the PCs hear the barking?
2) In a premade module I’m about to run, the party will be ambushed by a group of bandits in a city. The bandits plan to attack in a crowded street, hiding among the innocent bystanders until they make their move. Since the bandits have been trailing the PCs, the module states that every PC gets to roll Perception to recognize their stalkers in the crowd. A success means the PC gets to act in the surprise round. Important is that in the bandits’ tactics section, it is noted that the wizard that leads the bandits spends his first round casting slow on the party, thereby “initiating the combat” (quoted from the book).
My problem: What happens if (some of) the PCs make their perception check and roll a higher initiative than the wizard? Has combat started? If so, why? After all, the PCs don’t know the people they recognize are about to attack them. If not, then why did everyone have to roll initiative?
I'm probably just overthinking things. I'm sure you guys can clear this mess that is my brain up for me. :)
initiative can be tricky. I personally hate the "flat footed in the first round" rule and ONLY use it in surprise rounds. (though i have a special rule for rogues)
but thats just me.
as for the first situation.
I would give the party a chance to READY action to shoot or cast on the first thing that comes around the corner. dogs round the corner in a bunch, reactive fire goes off, roll initiatives.
of course this can lead to trouble if its not something they want to shoot but you can factor in the ability to abort this action.
in such a case i would say neither is flat footed, but by RAW the dogs MAY be flat footed which is stupid
As for the second one basically I would run it like this.
1) set up the sceen
2) players roll perception checks against the attackers. players who roll high enough may notice people eyeing them but not have any particular reason to attack them. (if they are somehow warned, like a player saying "I warn the group", the players who rolled within 5 is just oblivious players who rolled really low notice some one but its actually just a bystander)
2) then the wizard casts slow and the attackers initiate their surprise round
3) roll initiative for the whole battle
4) players who noticed attackers get to act in this surprise round on their initiative (just a standard action) and treat the flat footed rule as you normally do.
5) players who failed the perception do not act in the surprise round. (if they rolled really low maybe you let them attack an innocent bystander by accident)
6) after all attackers and relevant players act in the surprise round begin first full round of combat continues with all players in the initiative.
For the first situation, I'd have everyone roll for initiative, and then have the enemies burst through the door in 1d4 (or 1d3+1) rounds. This lets the players buff and set up readied actions and heightens the tension since no one knows exactly when hostilities will begin. Since one or more rounds will have passed, there's no expectation of anyone being flat-footed.
For the second situation, same as blue_the_wolf.
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For scenario one: If you want to go strictly by the rules, no surprise round because they know each other is there and everyone is flat-footed before their first action in the first round. I like the idea of 1d4 rounds until the dogs burst in. Because they are dogs (normal dogs I assume, not hellhounds or something), I don't think they would be ready for a barrage of arrows so I would let the PCs unleash one ranged attack (no full round actions) as they burst in then play out initiatives. I would say the dogs are flat-footed (not just because of the actual rules) because they aren't prepared for arrows. They are charging into melee. If they happened to be more intelligent dogs then probably just start the first round after the door bursts open.
I like how blue_the_wolf played out the second scenario.
My problem: Technically both sides are aware of the other, even though they haven’t seen each other yet. So no surprise round. But did combat start already? If so, then the dogs aren’t flat-footed when they round the corner and are treated to a hail of arrows. This seems weird to me. Also, when exactly is initiative rolled in this example? As soon as the PCs hear the barking?
Initiative can be rolled at any point (one GM I had a while back actually had us make a bunch of rolls at the start of the session that he could check off when he needed a number from us but didn't want to tell us what it was about...), but it's also not relevant.
As you point out, there is no surprise round. The dogs are indeed flat-footed because they've not yet taken an action; the readied action happens, by definition, before the dogs have a chance to do anything,.
Remember: You personally can still be flat-footed even once combat has started as long as you have not yet had an opportunity to take your action.
2) In a premade module I’m about to run, the party will be ambushed by a group of bandits in a city. The bandits plan to attack in a crowded street, hiding among the innocent bystanders until they make their move. Since the bandits have been trailing the PCs, the module states that every PC gets to roll Perception to recognize their stalkers in the crowd. A success means the PC gets to act in the surprise round. Important is that in the bandits’ tactics section, it is noted that the wizard that leads the bandits spends his first round casting slow on the party, thereby “initiating the combat” (quoted from the book).My problem: What happens if (some of) the PCs make their perception check and roll a higher initiative than the wizard? Has combat started? If so, why? After all, the PCs don’t know the people they recognize are about to attack them. If not, then why did everyone have to roll initiative?
Actually, I suggest recognizing that the people are about to attack them is precisely what a Perception roll is for. You don't need a roll to spot the fact that a person exists. The Perception roll is basically recognizing hostile intent -- e.g. noticing not that a person exists, but that the person has drawn a sword (or whipped out the components for a Slow spell) and is looking at you menacingly.
But, yes, there's the possibility of a moral quandary here; any characters with pacifistic leanings might object to the idea of a preemptive strike. Feel free to role-play it up....
My own take --
In the first scenario, I would roll initiative as soon as the group wanted to start doing combatty things (including buffs/readied actions) -- and then (as anthonydido suggested), have the dogs arrive in d3 rounds. (Unless there's someone in the group who could, conceivably, figure out how long it would take for the dogs to reach them, based on the barking, terrain, etc. -- but probably not).
If the party's readied their actions, the dogs will come around the corner and be attacked immediately. Because they're not intelligent or controlled by something intelligent (I assume), the party will take their readied action (only a standard) and get a shot/spell off as soon as the dogs round the corner. The readied action interrupts the dogs' actions, so they have not yet acted in combat and are, thus, flatfooted. (The movement to get here was prior to the combat). The dog's remaining action (probably a double-move) would then be resolved (assuming that one of the readied spells doesnt' stop it), and then we follow the ready-based init (since readying shifts your initiative) for the rest of combat.
If the dogs, however, were a pack of Hellhounds, they're plenty smart and probably wouldn't just rush around the corner blindly -- and would, instead, be taking preparatory actions based on knowing that the party is there any may have bows or spells (including, potentially, declaring a charge and/or declaring a full defense and only single-moving). In this case, they wouldn't be flat-footed.
In your scenario #2, I would say that your confusion comes from what the point of the perception test is. Despite what the fluff says abotu recognizing the bad guys, it's actually a test to avoid surprise -- so they're not just seeing the "bad guys", instead, they're seeing that the bad guys are getting ready to jump your party.
So people who make their perception check basically saw it coming (the readied weapons, the glances between them and the sudden tension as they get ready, etc -- you can describe it as seeing the sudden tension and anticipation as some of the bad guys start to lunge forward as they wait for the signal to attack [especially since Slow, while an excellent debuff, is not a spell that has a flashy effect, so it would be hard for the other bad guys to know the spell was cast unless they're being hyper-vigilant, which is what *may* give them away])... And, those who won initiative even saw it fast enough to do something *before* the mage casts his spell.
Of course, it's a surprise round, so everyone's limited to a standard action, which means that the casters are the most effective ones -- unless they have the Quickdraw feat, the martial ones will need to use their one action to draw weapons. (Their attackers, since they've got it planned, probably already have their weapons in hand -- which is another reason that your party gets to be suspicious of them)
In the first scenario, I would roll initiative as soon as the group wanted to start doing combatty things (including buffs/readied actions) -- and then (as anthonydido suggested), have the dogs arrive in d3 rounds. (Unless there's someone in the group who could, conceivably, figure out how long it would take for the dogs to reach them, based on the barking, terrain, etc. -- but probably not).
If the party's readied their actions, the dogs will come around the corner and be attacked immediately. Because they're not intelligent or controlled by something intelligent (I assume), the party will take their readied action (only a standard) and get a shot/spell off as soon as the dogs round the corner. The readied action interrupts the dogs' actions, so they have not yet acted in combat and are, thus, flatfooted. (The movement to get here was prior to the combat).
Logical as this sequence sounds, what confuses me is that according to my interpretation of RAW initiative is only rolled at the beginning of combat. So either the dogs aren't flatfooted (since they have taken actions during combat, using them to run towards the PCs, albeit unseen) or initiative should not be rolled until the first dog rounds the corner. That would however be weird in light of the PCs Readying (which is a special initiative action, so initiative must have already been rolled).
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1) A party of PCs is resting in a dungeon, when they suddenly hear loud barking in the distance, rapidly drawing closer. The PCs draw their bows and aim at the only entrance into their resting spot. How does this play out, assuming the dogs that are racing towards them know the PCs are there (a druid told them / they have picked up their scent)?
ANSWER: I would rule that neither group is surprised, and when they make visible contact to roll initiative and begin the round as normal.
2) In a premade module I’m about to run, the party will be ambushed by a group of bandits in a city. The bandits plan to attack in a crowded street, hiding among the innocent bystanders until they make their move. Since the bandits have been trailing the PCs, the module states that every PC gets to roll Perception to recognize their stalkers in the crowd. A success means the PC gets to act in the surprise round. Important is that in the bandits’ tactics section, it is noted that the wizard that leads the bandits spends his first round casting slow on the party, thereby “initiating the combat” (quoted from the book).
ANSWER: In my opinion, combat doesn't start until initiatives are rolled. Sop, if the PCs fail their perception checks, then they do not notice the ambushers who get to act in the surprise round. If the PCs succeed the check, it would seem the ambushers need to notice or perceive that they have been notice. I would do a bluff check on the PCs to conceal the fact they have noticed the possible ambush.
Logical as this sequence sounds, what confuses me is that according to my interpretation of RAW initiative is only rolled at the beginning of combat. So either the dogs aren't flatfooted (since they have taken actions during combat, using them to run towards the PCs, albeit unseen) or initiative should not be rolled until the first dog rounds the corner. That would however be weird in light of the PCs Readying (which is a special initiative action, so initiative must have already been rolled).In the first scenario, I would roll initiative as soon as the group wanted to start doing combatty things (including buffs/readied actions) -- and then (as anthonydido suggested), have the dogs arrive in d3 rounds. (Unless there's someone in the group who could, conceivably, figure out how long it would take for the dogs to reach them, based on the barking, terrain, etc. -- but probably not).
If the party's readied their actions, the dogs will come around the corner and be attacked immediately. Because they're not intelligent or controlled by something intelligent (I assume), the party will take their readied action (only a standard) and get a shot/spell off as soon as the dogs round the corner. The readied action interrupts the dogs' actions, so they have not yet acted in combat and are, thus, flatfooted. (The movement to get here was prior to the combat).
You're right -- strictly by RAW, the above would *not* have the dogs being flatfooted against the attacks of the guys with bows, because combat would begin when the PCs start buffing/readying and the dogs are (apparently) aware of the PCs (just not their plans). Technically, the strict application of RAW would have readied actions vs. normal AC (or maybe the -2 for charge AC) and that would be it....
...except that would also make ambushes, and thus, surprise, almost impossible by RAW.
The 8 guys hiding in the bushes with their crossbows drawn waiting for you to come within range would, by rolling their initiatives and readying for you to be in range, only get 1 standard action and the moment that your party moved forward (into the ambush), you'd have taken an action, and thus, would no longer be flatfooted.... unless they chose not to "start combat" until your party was already in range, in which case, how did they draw their weapons prior to combat?
...except that would also make ambushes, and thus, surprise, almost impossible by RAW.
That is incorrect.
The 8 guys hiding in the bushes with their crossbows drawn waiting for you to come within range would, by...
What you're describing here is completely different than the scenario posed by the original poster. In this case, the 8 ambushers each roll stealth checks (or they take 10; GM's prerogative), the GM calls for Perception checks by the party followed by rolls for initiative. Party members who beat the stealth checks get to act in the surprise round.
The original post made the explicit statement, "assuming the dogs that are racing towards them know the PCs are there (a druid told them / they have picked up their scent)" thus both parties are aware of each other so there can be no surprise round.
So, in the original poster's scenario, if the enemies wanted to ambush, they should have muzzled the dogs or commanded them to use the Stealth trick. If the party wanted to ambush, they should have taken measures to avoid detection from the druid or covered their scent from the dogs.
Except that, in order to ready an action, the ambushers needed to take a "combat" action, which "starts the combat", such that the ambush-ees *also* roll init, and, per RAW, there's only 1 surprise round.
If there is a surprise round, the ambushers don't need to ready an action. They just use their standard action to fire their crossbows at the PCs.
You're stepping away from the example that I provided.The ambushers were, originally, waiting for the party to step into range, and did so with weapons ready to fire. However, this is also missing the point I was raising.
I fully admit that the example was exaggerating things -- it was intended to do so. [And, yes, it was deliberately different than the "dogs" situation] My statement was that if combat starts the moment someone takes a "combat" action, then it makes ambushing very difficult (since, you know, drawing your weapon so that you can attack in the surprise round, would be such an action) -- because, per RAW, there's only 1 surprise round.
What I was getting at is that there are known issues with the simplified init/1 surprise round scenario, and I was just demonstrating that a *strict* RAW system doesn't work in *all* cases.
(What happens, for instance, when there are ambushers that the party isn't aware of because they've been baited by someone they *are* aware of? Who are they flatfooted against?)
And, because of this, a GM will often need to make a ruling. And no, I'm not suggesting we go back to the earlier edition rules where both parties could be completely surprised by each other.
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There is nothing that says you can't ready an action while not in combat. The readying rules for combat exist for in combat situations. You can certainly be prepared for certain things to happen at any time. And who says you need initiative to cast buff spells. People cast spells out of combat all of the time. Just because you hear dogs barking and they sound like they are getting closer also doesn't mean that they are even coming for you. Maybe they smell the meat of something the PCs killed earlier.
You can also take attack actions out of combat, usually just one action though as if it was a surprise round. If your group sneaks up on an unsuspecting group of bad guys (after having succesfully made stealth vs perception checks) then they could conceivably time it for everyone to fire arrows at the same time thus initiating combat. Combat doesn't usually start until both sides realize that there is a combat going on.
Is there any reason that as surprise round can't be injected into the regular round sequence? Say if a third group arrives in the middle of a combat already underway and is surprised.
Is there any reason that as surprise round can't be injected into the regular round sequence? Say if a third group arrives in the middle of a combat already underway and is surprised.
No. If the third party is the one doing the surprising, they can make stealth checks opposed by the PCs' perception checks. PCs that fail the opposed check are denied their Dex bonus to AC versus the third party. If the third party is close enough, that could mean they get sneak attack damage if they have that class feature. "Surprise!" :)
If the third party is the one who's surprised (unlikely since the Perception DC to hear the sounds of battle is really easy to make) then the situation is reversed--the third party is denied their Dex bonus to their AC versus the PCs.
Regardless, there is no "surprise round" mid-combat.
Maybe a third scenario can help shed some light on the issue, as it comes up regularly in my games and I'm always at a loss how to resolve it.
3) A ranger and a fighter are searching through some barrels in a warehouse. The ranger says "I will cover the fighter while he searches." He draws his bow and takes a Ready action to shoot anything that pops out of the barrels. The fighter walks around the barrels so he isn't in the way of the shot when he opens them.
A goblin rogue is hiding inside one of the barrels. It is very much aware of the PCs and readies an action to pop out of the barrel (a 5 ft step) and sneak attack the fighter as soon as he opens it. Both PCs fail their perception check to see the rogue peering through a peephole, so they are unaware of it.
How will this play out?
Step 1) Fighter opens the goblin's barrel, triggering the goblin's readied action.
Step 2) Rogue pops out of the barrel, technically surprising both PCs and getting a surprise round. However, his emergence triggers the ranger's readied action.
Step 3+) Now what? Who is surprised, who is flat-footed, who gets to go first, when is an initiative roll called for and how will the readied actions influence that roll?
Actually I think this example illustrates my confusion better than the previous two, so I'm looking forward to hear how you'd rule this.
Scenario 2:
Those PCs who make their perception rolls notice the wizard making suspicious movements. If they beat the wizard on initiative, they can act in the surprise round before he gets the spell off. At this point all they know is that someone is acting suspiciously, so attacking him might be seen as criminal, but they could still buff themselves or move to a tactical location.
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Maybe a third scenario can help shed some light on the issue, as it comes up regularly in my games and I'm always at a loss how to resolve it.
3) A ranger and a fighter are searching through some barrels in a warehouse. The ranger says "I will cover the fighter while he searches." He draws his bow and takes a Ready action to shoot anything that pops out of the barrels. The fighter walks around the barrels so he isn't in the way of the shot when he opens them.
A goblin rogue is hiding inside one of the barrels. It is very much aware of the PCs and readies an action to pop out of the barrel (a 5 ft step) and sneak attack the fighter as soon as he opens it. Both PCs fail their perception check to see the rogue peering through a peephole, so they are unaware of it.
How will this play out?
Step 1) Fighter opens the goblin's barrel, triggering the goblin's readied action.
Step 2) Rogue pops out of the barrel, technically surprising both PCs and getting a surprise round. However, his emergence triggers the ranger's readied action.
Step 3+) Now what? Who is surprised, who is flat-footed, who gets to go first, when is an initiative roll called for and how will the readied actions influence that roll?Actually I think this example illustrates my confusion better than the previous two, so I'm looking forward to hear how you'd rule this.
This is quite a confusing situation but I'll try my best to clarify things the way I see them.
First off, when you ready and action you are waiting for a specific action to occur and then you interrupt that action when it happens. This is how I'd play it out:
1)Fighter opens barrel
2)goblin attacks (using his readied action for the barrel to open) thus interrupting the fighter
3)ranger attacks (using his readied action for something to pop out of the barrels) thus interrupting the goblin
So when it plays out it's actually in reverse order. The ranger gets his attack. Then, if the goblin still lives, he gets his attack. Then the fighter can finish his turn.
Alternately, if the goblin was, say, somewhere else in the room and going to pounce on the fighter then the ranger wouldn't get his readied action because he was specifically looking for something to come out of the barrels.
Maybe a third scenario can help shed some light on the issue, as it comes up regularly in my games and I'm always at a loss how to resolve it.
3) A ranger and a fighter are searching through some barrels in a warehouse. The ranger says "I will cover the fighter while he searches." He draws his bow and takes a Ready action to shoot anything that pops out of the barrels. The fighter walks around the barrels so he isn't in the way of the shot when he opens them.
A goblin rogue is hiding inside one of the barrels. It is very much aware of the PCs and readies an action to pop out of the barrel (a 5 ft step) and sneak attack the fighter as soon as he opens it. Both PCs fail their perception check to see the rogue peering through a peephole, so they are unaware of it.
How will this play out?
Step 1) Fighter opens the goblin's barrel, triggering the goblin's readied action.
Step 2) Rogue pops out of the barrel, technically surprising both PCs and getting a surprise round. However, his emergence triggers the ranger's readied action.
Step 3+) Now what? Who is surprised, who is flat-footed, who gets to go first, when is an initiative roll called for and how will the readied actions influence that roll?Actually I think this example illustrates my confusion better than the previous two, so I'm looking forward to hear how you'd rule this.
This is quite a confusing situation but I'll try my best to clarify things the way I see them.
First off, when you ready and action you are waiting for a specific action to occur and then you interrupt that action when it happens. This is how I'd play it out:
1)Fighter opens barrel
2)goblin attacks (using his readied action for the barrel to open) thus interrupting the fighter
3)ranger attacks (using his readied action for something to pop out of the barrels) thus interrupting the goblin
So when it plays out it's actually in reverse order. The ranger gets his attack. Then, if the goblin still lives, he gets his attack....
Your interpretation is reasonable enough, except it doesn't address that the ranger wasn't aware of the goblin. If it were a PC in the barrel, I'm sure she'd argue that she was entitled to a surprise round. Or at the very least to an initiative roll.
While researching this, I came across the example of two people playing "slap your hand". One player holds his hand out (this is the ranger), the other player (this is the rogue) tries to slap it, while the first player tries to pull it away in time.
So the first player clearly is readying an action ("As soon as the other guy moves his hand, I pull mine away"), but from experience I can tell you he won't always succeed.
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But that is the definition of readying an action. You don't know for sure if it's going to happen or not but if it does you are ready for it. He may not have been aware that the goblin was there but he thought there was a chance that something could be there so, regardless of what it was, he was ready. You can ready an action to fire an arrow at someone if they cast a spell. You don't know for sure they are going to do it. You may not even know if they are capable of doing so. But if they do, you are ready.
I'm sure, had he made his perception roll to spot the goblin looking out of the hole, that things may have played out differently. Especially since he probably would have alerted the fighter.
Now, if they both went into the room willy-nilly and started searching barrels without any mention of readying an action, then yeah, the goblin would have completely had the upper hand. This is what good tactics awards you with. Otherwise, why even bother to try and be ready for something if it won't matter?
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I think the hand slap is a bad example because that's more based on reflexes. So it would be a reflex save or dex roll to avoid the slap. You can be ready for a fireball all you want but if you are in the targeted area when it goes off you have to make a reflex save to avoid some (or all) of the damage.
In the goblin instance I would probably let initiative order determine who goes first, the ranger or the goblin. Not necessarily RAW, but probably the best way to handle who wins the "hand slap".
I probably would, too, unless I felt that my players needed a "win" or a "give-me" for some reason (maybe they recently lost a companion in a previous fight, or spirits are down around the table). The goblin barrel scenario falls into that murky area where the rules aren't explicitly defined so you kinda have to wing it at that point.
If you were playing from a scenario, module, or some published source, there's probably GM text to describe how to handle it if the writer was trying to go for some specific effect. If you're the writer, then... Yeah. Pick some way to handle it.