I can go MAD!

[Makarion]

So, for an upcoming campaign, it seems our GM decided we needed luxury. The statline we get to work with is 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 (before racial modifiers). Only core races plus Aasimar/Tiefling, though (which suits me well - I tend to play humans). We also get to start at level 3. As a result, I figured I'd do something very MAD - a zen archer monk / divine hunter paladin.

How would you build that? Especially the level division is an issue, so far. It's pretty clear that Monk 3 is mandatory, and it's tempting to pick up Oath of Vengeance, which would lead towards Paladin 4 minimum. Would you go Paladin 4 / Monk 4 (ki pool?) and see from there? Or set out for Monk 3 and paladin until the cows come home, focusing charisma over wisdom? Maybe even Pal 1 / Monk 8 ? Is Improved Precise Shot and Weapon Specialisation worth going Monk 6 for - since I would otherwise not meet the prerequisites (but monk bonus feats ignore those)?

Right now, I'm thinking something like this as an intermediate build to aim for:

Aasimar Monk (Zen Archer) 3 / Paladin (Divine Hunter, Oath of Vengeance) 5

Str 15 +1 level 8 = 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 16 +2 racial = 18
Cha 17 +2 racial +1 level 4 = 20

Bonus feats: point blank shot (monk), perfect strike (monk), wf: longbow (monk), precise shot (paladin), point blank master (monk), dodge (monk)
Feats: Deadly Shot, Improved Initiative, Extra Lay on Hands, Noble Scion (Scion of War).

Thank you in advance for the input!

[blackbloodtroll]

Are both classes a must?

Is Human a must?

What books are available?

[Makarion]

Human isn't a must, but I do prefer human-like (and I would need really powerful arguments to consider small-sized).

As far as books goes, it seems our usual of Core, APG, Combat & Magic. In the past, 3.5 feats have been allowed by GM fiat but only if nothing similar existed in Pathfinder and it was mainly flavor, or at least not obviously aimed at becoming a combat monster.

As far as classes goes: I will be an archer, and I want to be lightly-armoured at most. I consider at least 1 level of paladin a must as well. The Zen Archer angle is very tempting, since it entirely circumvents the requirements for Manyshot by using Flurry and Wisdom, and it adds a lot of bonus feats.

[blackbloodtroll]

What about the Divine Hunter archetype?

If you want to dip, Weapon Master is nice.

This dip is better when you grab some Gloves of Dueling.

[Makarion]

I did list Divine Hunter as being part of my plan :).

Now I think of it, I would consider an Inquisitor archer as well, but I do want to focus on combat over spells - after playing a cleric and an oracle in successive campaigns, I'm kind of tired of that particular spell list and role (although I still enjoy religious characters).

Gloves of Duelling are nice, but not something I can plan on. For one thing, we start at level 3 (and we do not allow any item to be more than half the total wealth of a character).

[blackbloodtroll]

DM likes to skimp on treasure?

[Makarion]

Not really, no - but there are generally no magic item shops at all, and we've got a bit of a bad taste of crafting after our recently-ended campaign ran out of hand on that front. I suspect it will be more controlled from here on out. As a result, I do not want anything that is dependant on a particular magic item that isn't bog standard. [A 15k item does not fit that category].

[blackbloodtroll]

So, you have money, but no where to spend it, and making your own, is frowned upon?

I would go Eldritch Heritage, nab a Bonded Object, and choose a Bow.

[Makarion]

I *suspect* that we'll see somewhat more restricted magic item production. As mentioned, the prior campaign was a heaving sea of magic items on demand from our wizard, making whatever we wanted, ignoring all prerequisites, during lunchbreak or at a stretch overnight.

The rules are plain broken as they stand, and it takes the *fun* out of things. That alone, more than the power of the exact item you want, when you want it, is enough reason to do something about it. Mind you, i don't know what will change, but it's pretty certain something will in that regard.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, flavored properly, this can be quite fun.

For instance, if you are a follower of Erastril, you could see it a Holy Symbol of sorts.

Also, the Skill Focus(Knowledge) can be Religion.

Choose the Focused Study alternate racial trait for Human.

Your Divine Bond and Arcane Bond can be one item.

[Makarion]

Wouldn't a paladin archer with Eldritch Heritage run awfully low on feats? For all practical purposes, it's mandatory to grab PBS / Rapid Shot / Precise Shot asap, and Manyshot not long after it becomes available. I don't see how it would fit, I'm afraid.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, that is where the Weapon Master Fighter dip comes in.

[Makarion]

So a minimum of 3 fighter levels, versus 3 levels of monk for zen archer. Hmmm. The Fighter version would require a ton of dex to make the build work, but can skip most of the wisdom in return, so that's a wash. Monk has better features, I think, although the fighter gets better damage unless you go at least monk 6, at which point zen archer has too many benefits for a fighter really to compete - but that's hardly a dip anymore.

[blackbloodtroll]

You won't need wisdom.

Move that 16 into Dex.

[sunbeam]

In your shoes, with those stats I'd go straight Zen Archer.

Paladin would be a fine choice too, but I'm not sure if I would take an archetype.

Take another look at Divine Hunter. Look at what you get, and what you give up. I looked at this once and it didn't seem very useful.

Divine Hunter:

"Precise Shot

A divine hunter gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces her Heavy Armor Proficiency."

Okay I guess, but only if you really don't want to take Point Blank Shot. But since you are going to have to take Point Blank Shot to qualify for most of your other archery feats...

You probably won't be hurting for dex, but depending on your build you still might want Heavy Armor Proficiency.

"Shared Precision (Su)

At 3rd level, when a divine hunter hits a creature with a ranged attack, she grants her allies within 10 feet of her the benefit of the Precise Shot feat against that target until the start of her next turn. Her allies must remain within 10 feet of her, and must be able both to see and hear the divine hunter to gain this benefit.

This ability replaces aura of courage."

How often are you going to be in a group with other archers? There usually isn't more than one. And if you are, how likely is is they don't have Precise Shot?

Might be good for a Paladin leading a company of low level archers, but I'd rather have Aura of Courage.

"Divine Bond (Su)

At 5th level, a divine hunter forms a bond with her deity. This functions as the paladin’s divine bond ability, except the bond must always take the form of a ranged or throwing weapon (excluding ammunition). In addition to the listed abilities, a divine hunter can add the distance, returning, or seeking special abilities to her weapon, but she cannot add the defending or disruption special abilities. Special abilities added to throwing weapons function normally when the weapon is used in melee.

This ability replaces the standard paladin’s divine bond."

This just doesn't add much. Odds are you are using a bow, and returning isn't applicable, and distance isn't a property that is highly sought after on a weapon. Seeking is good, but you could have a +1 bow and add other abilities and enhancement to it with the regular Divine Bond. Plus as a Divine Hunter you lose the capability of enhancing your sword or whatever if you need a melee weapon, whereas the regular Paladin can enhance a bow if he wants.

Plus as an archer you might well want a mount.

"Distant Mercy (Sp)

At 6th level, a divine hunter can expend two uses of her lay on hand ability to use her lay on hands ability on a target within 5 feet per paladin level. Distant mercy has no effect on creatures harmed by positive energy, such as undead.

This ability replaces the paladin’s 6th-level mercy."

Okay I guess. I'm pretty sure there is a feat that allows you to do this, but I could be wrong. You'll be strapped for feats as an archer, so it's okay. I don't think it will come up that much though.

"Aura of Care (Su)

At 8th level, a divine hunter and her allies gain a preternatural awareness of each other’s position in battle. She and any allies within 10 feet of her no longer provide cover against each other’s ranged attacks unless they wish to. Allies who cannot move or otherwise take actions still provide cover, as do flat-footed allies. The divine hunter and her allies must be able to see or hear each other to use this ability.

This ability replaces aura of resolve.

Hunter’s Blessing (Su)

At 11th level, a divine hunter can expend a use of her smite evil ability as a swift action to grant herself and all allies within 10 feet the Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot feats, even if they lack the prerequisites. The effects last for 1 minute. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.

This ability replaces aura of justice."

These things just aren't going to come up. If you have ranged combatants in your party, they are going to have these feats already, or they are going to be ray specialists or something that won't benefit from it.

Unless you have that *cough super-rare archery Rogue in your group. Or your company of 1st level warriors.

I'd rather have the auras.

"Righteous Hunter (Su)

At 14th level, a divine hunter’s ranged weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Any ranged attacks made by an ally within 10 feet of her are likewise treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

This ability functions only while the divine hunter is conscious.

This ability replaces aura of righteousness."

This might actually come up, but Aura of Righteousness will be used a lot more often I think.

In short if you go Archer Paladin, which is a fine choice, don't go Divine Hunter. Pick another archetype or go straight Paladin.

I think you will find a Zen Archer more interesting, though probably less damage against key opponents. The utility is pretty much the same I think, the Zen Archer has excellent survival and mobility (and saves).

I just think Divine Archer was poorly thought out, and doesn't do much of anything well, compared to your other choices.

[blackbloodtroll]

I would go Azata-Blooded Aasimar.

Nab the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.

[The Human Diversion]

MAD?

Pathfinder has Magnetic Anomaly Detectors?

(sorry, channeling my first job when I worked for SubTech)

[blackbloodtroll]

Mothers Against Drow.

[Silent Saturn]

Magically Assured Destruction. ;)

[Turin the Mad]

Munching Anything Deserving?

Fighter all the way. Indulge in such luxuries as

• Knowledge skills!
• Craft (three of choice)!!
• Diplomacy!!!
• the Heal skill!!!!

The mind positively boggles. ;)

[blackbloodtroll]

As he said, at least 1 level of Paladin is a must.

I don't know why. Concept? Flavor?

[soupturtle]

If you want paladin, you want archery, and you have awesome stats: why not a straight paladin archer? Three levels of zen archer just seems like making yourself MAD without a purpose. You get flurry, but only for one extra attack, so you're still going to want rapid shot and manyshot later on, and thus you still need high dex to get those feats. A single class paladin archer may have fewer fancy tricks, but will be way more powerful than your proposed multiclass, and when smiting probably more powerful than any other build.

Start with 19 dex, 16 cha, 15 str and your other stats however you like them. Skip the divine hunter archetype. Get all the standard ranged combat feats. Enjoy using the most powerful combat style in the game with all the benefits of being a paladin without having to be an unwise idiot. And whenever there's enough room you get to do mounted archery, which is probably the most deadly combat style in the game.