Sap Questions

[Jak Rodgers]

I was looking at the monk weapons that a monk can use with a flurry of blows and I was curious about two things.

First: a sap is very similar in description to an eskrima stick (a potent martial art whose movements are the same for the stick as they are for unarmed or knife attacks) so why, though a monk can use a club, does a monk not have sap proficiencies?

Second: why was the sap not added to the list of weapons a monk can flurry with? It is a light weapon, and it is an interesting way to deal lots of non-lethal damage to an enemy.

I'm just wondering why that wasn't considered.

PS: why was the sap a martial weapon instead of a simple weapon? With a cost of zero, anyone can pick up a thin stick and whack someone with it.

[Orfamay Quest]

Jak Rodgers wrote:

I was looking at the monk weapons that a monk can use with a flurry of blows and I was curious about two things.

First: a sap is very similar in description to an eskrima stick (a potent martial art whose movements are the same for the stick as they are for unarmed or knife attacks) so why, though a monk can use a club, does a monk not have sap proficiencies?

Second: why was the sap not added to the list of weapons a monk can flurry with? It is a light weapon, and it is an interesting way to deal lots of non-lethal damage to an enemy.

I'm just wondering why that wasn't considered.

PS: why was the sap a martial weapon instead of a simple weapon? With a cost of zero, anyone can pick up a thin stick and whack someone with it.

First, a typical "sap" is not just a stick; it's something softer and more flexible exactly because it's supposed to do nonlethal damage. The stereotypical sap is actually something like a small bag of sand or a rubber truncheon.

And second, using such a weapon properly requires a bit of skill, practice, and training, precisely because it's so restrictive to use it. You can't, for example, parry or thrust effectively with a sap because it's so flexible. But this isn't the kind of training you'd usually get when you take escrima; quite the opposite.

[SlimGauge]

Isn't the classic sap a leather bag filled with lead shot ?

I don't see a rules question in the OP's post. Shouldn't this go in a different forum ?

EDIT: added link

[blackbloodtroll]

There is a way to Flurry with a Sap, but it requires investment, and at least a one level dip.

Are you interested?

[Sober Caydenite]

Since monks can do nonlethal damage with their unarmed strikes without penalty anyway, and start out at the same damage die, what would be the point of fooling around with saps?

[blackbloodtroll]

Um, flavor?

I don't know.

[Joesi]

When I played with a sap I played a rogue with a dip into monk. If you wanted to be more monk-y you could be monk with a dip of rogue (but that seems more weird and out of place to me)
While it does hinder the overall effectiveness of a monk that it can't use the sap, I think it's fine that it can't, and the dip of rogue can be quite valuable.

One could say a lot of weapons shouldn't be martial or even exotic; it's there more for balance reasons I'd say (by that I mean both variety-balance, and power-balance).

Sober Caydenite wrote:

Since monks can do nonlethal damage with their unarmed strikes without penalty anyway, and start out at the same damage die, what would be the point of fooling around with saps?

While I agree with you, I suppose one reason would be to overcome DR easier, since monk's body generally doesn't overcome DR as well as regular magic weapons.

[blackbloodtroll]

Amulet of Mighty fists will eventually allow the Monk to overcome DR just fine.

[Orfamay Quest]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Amulet of Mighty fists will eventually allow the Monk to overcome DR just fine.

Expensive, though. Since the need to do nonlethal damage is somewhat situational, and so is the need to overcome DR, it might be cheaper and easier just to golf-bag a sap for when you need it.

[blackbloodtroll]

The AoMF is priced like two weapons.

So, his cost, is comparable to a two-weapon fighting PC.

Needing to bypass DR, and deal nonlethal, might not come up that often, early on.

Monks are not even proficient with saps.

Better to take the -4 to deal nonlethal with a Special Material Monk weapon.

At least, he will be able to Flurry.

[Jak Rodgers]

I was just curious, mostly. Yes for flavor purposes primarily, but again, I was curious.

But even with the level dip into Rogue, or the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, because it isn't a monk weapon, I know it can't be flurried with. But it'd have been cool a concept regardless.

[blackbloodtroll]

Take a level in Crusader Cleric of Jiraviddain, then grab the Crusader's Flurry feat.

Flurry with Sap achieved.