To put it into programmer speak: is it OR or AND?
I've always seen the synthesist as a semantically mutliple bonus type of character. However, given the rule (see quote a) it coalesces back down into a single bonus for every situation of duplicate bonuses which mostly happens when both summoner and synthesist have the same bonus such as would happen for evolutions (see quote b).
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
*Even though this is specifically talking about spells the same situation applies as the synthesist stacks bonuses on itself as shown in quote b.
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.
The result of this can be displayed the following way:
If a synth took the resistance (cold) evolution at level 10 we would have:
Scenario A
Synthesist ------------------ Eidolon
Resist (cold 15) ------------ Resist (cold 15)
But as they are the same creature this simply coalesces into a single resist (cold 15).
Repeating this for each evolution we eventually end up with a single character with a single set of features.
The question then becomes what exactly is meant by "gains access" in relationship to the eidolon? Can the synthesist directly gain the evolutions or are they applied to the eidolon and then he simply inherits the benefits by virtue of being the same character?
Taking from the above it really could either be:
Scenario B
Synthesist ------------------ Eidolon
Resist (cold 15)---------------------
-- or --
Scenario C
Synthesist ------------------ Eidolon
----------------------------- Resist (cold 15)
In few, one including baleful polymorph, situations would this actually have a mechanical impact. However, it would help clear up the semantic interaction between the two and help provide a basis on which consistent rulings can occur rather than being amorphous by nature. It would also help clear up various misconceptions about certain evolutions. For example, there is an FAQ against it but it's more "cuz we don't wanna" about using ability increase on charisma but there should be some more consistency than that and it insinuates Scenario C is correct. However, in the baleful polymorph scenario if Scenario B is true then b.p. mantains its visciousnes but not so much in Secnario C as that more describes the merged form as a class feature. To make it more interesting in the scenario with baleful polymorph, consider a synthesist with the large or huge evolution. B.p. makes you small but you're still large/huge thanks to evolutions unless Scenario B is the correct way to see the interaction.
Anyone know which it is?
It's not just about resist energy. It's more about getting into the semantics of which part of the character "owns" which benefits. Do both own it, the synthesist or the eidolon? Each have their own implications. The best stress test for this I've seen is a synthesist who fails both saves against baleful polymorph.
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To put it into programmer speak: is it OR or AND?
I'd say the "fluff" text is contextually enlightening:
Instead of two creatures, the synthesist is a fusion of the summoner and eidolon into a single being.
In other words, they share everything the rules say they do. When a Synthesist has his eidolon summoned, there is no more "eidolon" or "summoner" for the purposes of most game mechanics other than HP. Treat them as a single creature with one set of skills, feats, resistances, etc.
This is just my personal interpretation, mind, but considering the context of the Skilled evolution (it applies to the summoner because the summoner gets access to his eidolon's evolutions), I'd say you just treat everything as a Summoner/Eidolon hybrid creature (SUMNOLON, DESTROYER OF RAW).
They are a single being. However, even if it fails against both saves vs. b.p. then:
It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
Fused Eidolon and subsequently Eidolon are none of those so you're still fused to your eidolon. If the eidolon owns all your evolutions and not you then you could still gain the benefits of all your evolutions as they're tied to a class feature that isn't typed. However, if the synthesist owns them they would lose all of them due to them being typed as extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural.
Furthermore, if you say both own them then b.p. only removes them from the merged creature but it would still gain their benefit through the untyped class feature, Fused Eidolon.
They are a single being. However, even if it fails against both saves vs. b.p. then:
It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.Fused Eidolon and subsequently Eidolon are none of those so you're still fused to your eidolon. If the eidolon owns all your evolutions and not you then you could still gain the benefits of all your evolutions as they're tied to a class feature that isn't typed. However, if the synthesist owns them they would lose all of them due to them being typed as extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural.
That line would be superseded by a prior passage:
If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities
All the evolutions are Ex, Su, or Sp, so they are all automatically stripped before you worry about which class features you get to keep.
EDIT: regarding your second post, you can't "get access" to an evolution that no longer exists. Your eidolon-you no longer has any evolutions, because BP already sheared them off. Similar example: a gnome can gain spell-like abilities from an untyped racial trait, but BP takes those away regardless of their origin, as well.
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From what you're saying I could then dismiss my eidolon and spend an hour resummoning in my b.p.'d form to get them back without having to remove b.p. What's the difference between just keeping them and doing this?
From what you're saying I could then dismiss my eidolon and spend an hour resummoning in my b.p.'d form to get them back without having to remove b.p. What's the difference between just keeping them and doing this?
Real World Analogy: Ceremonial Magic is still spellcasting. However, that's neither here nor there, and only my personal opinion which I will not push. I will, however, FAQ-recommend this to see if someone can give us a definitive answer as to whether or not baleful polymorph would block your ability to perform rituals like summoning rituals. Again, personally I would say you can't summon your eidolon, but on the other hand, the ritual is listed as part of an untyped class feature.
If you can then you just basically get your evolutions back as well I would think. The effect of b.p. is permanent but is not an emanation or similar effect that keeps happening. It's one and done but it's one-ness, as it were, is persistent until the effect ends, yes?
From what you're saying I could then dismiss my eidolon and spend an hour resummoning in my b.p.'d form to get them back without having to remove b.p. What's the difference between just keeping them and doing this?
Why do you assume that the eidolon regains its evolutions via dismissal?
If I remember right, b.p. says that the target "loses" a laundry list of abilities that include the evolutions.
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From what you're saying I could then dismiss my eidolon and spend an hour resummoning in my b.p.'d form to get them back without having to remove b.p. What's the difference between just keeping them and doing this?
No, you would remain under the effect of the Baleful polymorph.
Summoner: What happens when a synthesist (page 80) takes a penalty, suffers an affliction, or has an ongoing effect when the eidolon disappears?
These effects persist on the summoner after the eidolon is gone. For example, a ray of enfeeblement on the fused character continues to affect the summoner after the eidolon is gone, as would a bestow curse spell or acid arrow spell, as would continuing poison damage. These effects apply to the character as a whole, and just because the eidolon is gone doesn't mean the summoner is freed from the effect (ability damage is tracked separately, as described in another FAQ, because it is a separate game statistic that the summoner "borrows" from the eidolon). If the condition or effect ends (whether from its duration running out, being cured/negated/dispelled, and so on) while the eidolon is gone, it doesn't return when the eidolon is resummoned. This applies to beneficial effects as well as harmful ones--an invisible summoner isn't suddenly visible if his eidolon disappears, nor does he become invisible again if the duration ran out while the eidolon was gone.—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11
This can be applied in the opposite direction. Ongoing effects to not end just because the eidolon is summoned. An invisible summoner calling his eidolon would not suddenly appear. Buff spells on the summoner before calling his eidolon would remain in effect. Etc.
Because all evolutions go away when you're not merged as you get them via that class feature. Once the eidolon comes back those evolutions are newly applied. The previous effect is still there but it would take a new casting of it to remove them yet again.
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Because all evolutions go away when you're not merged as you get them via that class feature. Once the eidolon comes back those evolutions are newly applied.
What evolutions? After the polymorph, the eidolon no longer has them to give you.
You are now a scorpion. Your eidolon is now a scorpion. When they merge, you get,... two scorpions, merged into a single being.
The FAQ you posted, Artanthos, is if the summoner keeps the same afflictions. Of course they do. The FAQ was basically saying "no, you can't get a free break enchantment by dismissing your eidolon." You're still that scorpion with no spell casting ability. However, the eidolon is no longer afflicted once dismissed as you're no longer two creatures. When it comes back, though, it has those evolutions yet again. Again, you're still a scorpion that can't cast spells. You just have those evolutions back as well. The only instance where the eidolon is persistently effected even when dismissed is the FAQ about ability damage and hp damage as it relates to con damage. It mentions no other afflictions and no where else are any afflictions mentioned that persist on the eidolon after it is dismissed other than hp. Only the summoner is persistently afflicted when the eidolon goes away.
I think a better way of expressing my opinion would be:
All three of scenarios A, B, and C are incorrect. The actual situation is as follows:
Scenario D
Synthesis and Eidolon
Resist (cold 15)
Bear in mind that, until level 16, the synthesist literally cannot be separated from her eidolon; even at that level, they can only separate for rounds per day, and it explicitly says that they have the same evolutions when they are separated.
In the case of the baleful polymorph, the combined creature (synthesist/eidolon) loses the evolutions, which means that the combined creature no longer has them; if they were able to separate, for whatever reason, they still have identical evolutions (i.e. none).
There's an interesting question about what would happen if a 17th level summoner separated from his eidolon and then one of the two of them were hit with a nasty effect like b.p. In this case, I would rule it as analogous to "merge forms" and any effects on the summoner would be "suspended" until they were separated again. But hitting both with a single effect would affect both with that single effect.
However, the eidolon is no longer afflicted once dismissed as you're no longer two creatures.
I think this is the problematic statement. Can you justify it? Because as far as I can tell, it's simply wrong. Why does the eidolon get a free break enchantment by being dismissed?
Furthermore, there's even a spell that addresses this: Purified Calling, which causes your eidolon to appear "at full hit points and without any damage or penalties to its ability scores, regardless of its previous condition. In addition, any temporary negative conditions affecting your eidolon are immediately removed." The spell explicitly excludes permanent conditions -- i.e. if your eidolon was turned to stone, it's still stone.
Why would this spell need to exist at all if all afflictions including permanent ones were automatically fixed by an ordinary dismissal/summoning cycle?
You're still a scorpion that can't cast spells.
It's still a scorpion without evolutions.
Put them together, and you get an evolution-free scorpion without spellcasting.
I can justify it in that there are no blanket rules saying "all effects on an eidolon persist when it's dismissed" for the synthesist or base summoner. There are edges cases for ability damage and hp damage, but that's it, period. That spell you mentioned are for those exact things. I can similarly ask why would other effects keep applying when only two are spelled out to persist. Also, since they're treated like summoned creatures, if you summon one creature and it gets a persistent effect on it then do summon monster again does that summon also have that effect? No, it doesn't.
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The eidolon losses all effects if the duration expires or the effect on the summoner is otherwise terminated while the summoner is unfused.
If the condition or effect ends (whether from its duration running out, being cured/negated/dispelled, and so on) while the eidolon is gone, it doesn't return when the eidolon is resummoned.
Emphasis mine.
The implication, usually in the synthesist's favor, is that ongoing effects do not cease when the eidolon is summoned. The wording would be radically different if this was not the case.
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I can justify it in that there are no blanket rules saying "all effects on an eidolon persist when it's dismissed" for the synthesist or base summoner. There are edges cases for ability damage and hp damage, but that's it, period. That spell you mentioned are for those exact things. I can similarly ask why would other effects keep applying when only two are spelled out to persist. Also, since they're treated like summoned creatures, if you summon one creature and it gets a persistent effect on it then do summon monster again does that summon also have that effect? No, it doesn't.
Normal Summonings aren't summoning the same creature over and over. it's a random creature of specified type from another plane. permanent conditions are permanent even on dispel/unsummon of the creature. you just aren't likely to pull the same creature again, especially since most summon creatures die before dismissal. the Eidolon and some Familiars are the only instances besides bindings where summoned creatures become persistant.
I can justify it in that there are no blanket rules saying "all effects on an eidolon persist when it's dismissed" for the synthesist or base summoner. There are edges cases for ability damage and hp damage, but that's it, period.
Waitwaitwait. You're actually stating here that ability and Hit Point damage are OK to assume are retained between summonings, but not permanent effects, just because the rules don't explicitly state that a permanent effect is permanent in the Summoner rules.
You're calling hit point and ability damage "edge cases", but you're arguing that a permanent effect is just handwaved away with "the eidolon went home and got better", despite the core game mechanic that a permanent effect is permanent unless specifically removed. That's upside-down. Never mind that Purified Calling explicitly states that even that spell, a 4th-level summoner spell, does not remove permanent effects or ability drain from your eidolon when it is summoned using that spell. BP is the maximum level that Break Enchantment can remove and permanent ability drain requires a separate 100gp casting of Restoration or Restore Eidolon for each ability score drained, or one casting of Greater Restoration.
Baleful Polymorph is a permanent effect. There is no reason to expect it to be broken solely because you dismiss your eidolon, and the absence of language saying it isn't doesn't constitute evidence that it is.
It's a permanent effect that remains on you, the summoner, as per the FAQ. The implication from this is when the eidolon is dismissed it's no longer effected.
Yes. It's in the first sentence.
These effects persist on the summoner after the eidolon is gone.
If they persist on the summoner then they stop on the eidolon. If it still affected both it would have said so.
Two mistakes: I should have said "should" and it only takes one minute to do the summoning ritual instead of an hour.