Feral Combat Training Questions


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

No, it's not asking if it gives extra attacks on a flurry. I've read some of that debate and am going to err on the conservative side since the character is for PFS. That out of the way, my actual questions...

My girlfriend wants to try Pathfinder and join me in PFS games. We went over options and she decided to go with a tiefling natural attack ranger. She also happens to be a martial artist and thought it might be cool to add some style feats to the character, which got me thinking about sneaking a level of monk in there. This led to the Feral Combat Training feat, and a couple questions arose.

Paraphrasing, the feat allows one to "apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike." This seems pretty clear-cut in the first case, aka she can add the effects of things like Dragon Ferocity to her selected natural attack. What is defined as "effects that augment an unarmed strike" is much less clear. Specifically, a monk's bonuses to attacking unarmed; do they apply here? Increased damage die, the ability to attack for non-lethal damage, etc? If combined with regular (non-flurry) unarmed strikes, such as a series of kicks and headbutts, natural attacks would normally be considered secondary and thus apply only half Str bonus to damage; with the Feral Combat Training feat, do they now benefit from a monk being able to "apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes"?

The last is more of a gripe than a question, since the RAW is clear, I just think it may be a bit of an oversight: anyone else notice that this feat lacks the oh-so-common but vital bit at the end "This feat can be taken more than once"? I discovered this while playing around with builds in Hero Lab; poor girl won't be able to take Feral Combat Training for both her claws and her bite.

As always, thank you in advance for your insight into the matter, please try not to derail the topic (such as by bringing up the flurry debate; I don't care, this character will never use flurry), and above all, if there is a disagreement, please handle it with courtesy and respect. Thank you.

Grand Lodge

You know the "apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes" thing is for Flurry?

When you Flurry with the chosen Natural Weapon, this applies.

Basically, you can Flurry with the chosen Natural Weapon as if it were a Monk weapon.

Dark Archive

I am afraid I must disagree: the section that speaks of a monk applying full strength bonus to unarmed strikes, as well as doing extra damage based on size and level, being able to deal lethal or nonlethal damage without penalty, and treating unarmed strikes as both manufactured and natural weapons is under the Unarmed Strike monk ability, NOT the Flurry of Blows monk ability. Even when not flurrying, a monk's unarmed strikes are always considered primary and deal full strength damage. My question, among a few others, is whether or not Feral Combat Training allows this to apply to the chosen natural weapon as well. With that clarification, care to assay another answer?

Grand Lodge

If a Monk decides to two-weapon fight(not Flurry) and uses his Unarmed Strike as his off-hand weapon, he only gets x.5 strength to damage.

When using Feral Combat Training, to Flurry with the chosen Natural Weapon, the "apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes" applies, as it would for Unarmed Strikes.

This is true, even if the Natural Weapon is always secondary, or if it would normally deal x1.5 strength to damage.

So, he uses Flurry, with the chosen Natural Weapon, and it adds x1 Strength to damage.


Almost. If you use TWF rather than Flurry, a Monk can add 1x damage to unarmed strike off-hand attacks (but not other weapons, including natural attacks). But if you Flurry, everything gets 1x str damage; off-hand attacks with any weapon, even a 2-h weapon will only get 1x str damage. But when it says "effects that augment unarmed strikes", it's referring to things like Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) or the enhancement bonus granted by an AoMF and the like. The general consensus is that the manner in which Monks increase their damage dice for unarmed strike is changing the base damage of unarmed strike rather than enhancing the damage. It's more like the Lead Blades spell which increases the base damage of your weapon by a size category. Say, for the sake of example, you have a weapon that deals 1d8 damage and an ability that doubles your number of damage dice; that 1d8 weapon deals 2d8 damage because of the ability. But if you have Lead Blades cast, the weapon's size category goes up and it would deal, iirc, 2d6 damage. Then, the ability increases it to 4d6 rather than 2d6 + 1d8 because the base damage dice has changed. Monk's Unarmed Strike special ability is changing the base damage of Unarmed Strike specifically so it wouldn't apply to a FCT natural weapon.

Dark Archive

I appreciate the input blackbloodtroll, but I really must insist that you review the two relevant sections of the monk writeup, specifically the descriptions of the abilities Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Strike, two separate abilities. The part about always applying full strength bonus to unarmed strikes is referenced only in the Unarmed Strike section, and in no way makes mention of only applying during a flurry attack. It is, therefore, as Kazaan said, in that a monk who decided to use TWF and not flurry would still get 1x str bonus as long as all the attacks were unarmed strikes.

Kazaan, thank you as well. You make a very good argument for the monk's increased unarmed damage not being a factor applied with FCT. I'm still unsure about the other parts of the Unarmed Strike ability, however. You mentioned Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), which I am sure would not stack with the Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon X) that is a prerequisite for FCT, so I do not think that is one of the effects they had in mind. And an AoMF already applies to all the creature's natural attacks, so I don't think that one is relevant either. So... exactly what kind of "effects that affect unarmed strikes" (that aren't already covered in the first part about feats requiring Improved Unarmed Strike) are they referring to, if not stuff like this? I'm just confused as to what is supposed to apply.


The most obvious reference would be something like the magic weapon spell where it says specifically unarmed strikes can be targeted but natural weapons cannot be (that is where magic fang comes in). FCT now makes it work. Others would be some of the racial abilities (Elemental Assault- Suli) which allow you to deal elemental damage with unarmed attacks, you could now deal damage with it using natural weapons via FCT.

Some people say 'effects' cover absolutely everything that grants bonuses or modifies attack rolls or what have you. I'm not 100% sold on that, in one of the most recent threads that came up regarding the brawler archtype and the close combatant ability it states when using a weapon from the Close Weapons Group the fighter gains a bonus to hit and damage. Unarmed Strikes are part of the group so people are arguing when using FCT the natural attack should get the bonus.

I disagree, if you aren't using a correct weapon, the trigger for the bonus never happens, so the bonus/'effect' is never granted. It isn't an effect 'augmenting' the weapon, it is a bonus granted for using a specific weapon (or group in this case) by the wording of the ability.

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