Archer Archetype & Combat Maneuvers Clarification.

[Azaelas Fayth]

"Does a Fighter(Archer Archetype) using Trick Shot to perform a Combat Maneuver use DEX or STR for the roll?"

Most believe it to be DEX, especially after the Weapon Finesse FAQ. (My Take.)
Some think it is STR only.

Wondering if there is any Dev Clarification or if it needs F.A.Q.'d to get it clarified or what?

[Kazaan]

I'd say, considering the Weapon Finesse FAQ, whatever stat you use for Attack Bonus is the same stat you use in determining CMB when performing Sunder, Disarm, or Trip using a weapon. Since ranged attacks use Dex as their to-hit stat, it makes sense that Trick Shot would use Dex for the combat maneuver. If you had a weapon that used Wisdom to determine attack bonus, then CMB would also be based on Wisdom for weapon-based maneuvers.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Not what I asked... I am specifically asking for the last sentence.

[Kazaan]

I answered that sentence. ...considering the Weapon Finesse FAQ... means that it's based on a dev clarification that has already been made. Weapon Finesse changes your to-hit stat from Str to Dex and it has been ruled that when performing the stated "weapon-based" maneuvers, WF lets you also swap Str for Dex for your CMB calculation. Ergo, since Ranged Combat uses Dex to calculate Attack, it also uses Dex to calculate CMB. That would also extend to using an Agile weapon or a Guided weapon, to preempt further questions regarding those that would be prompted by the response. Basically, you already cited the FAQ regarding the issue and I don't think it needs any further clarification.

[Gauss]

I agree with Kazaan, it is pretty clearly spelled out already. If it uses the weapon to make an attack roll then it uses the bonuses of that weapon. ALL of the bonuses.

That still leaves the tricky areas of Combat Maneuvers that are not Disarm, Trip, or Sunder. Specifically, the ability provides an exception to that by stating the combat maneuvers are using the bow.

- Gauss

[Azaelas Fayth]

Still there are quite a few that say it doesn't work with the Bow as it only states about Weapon Finesse and not the rest.

[Kazaan]

Good for them. They're wrong. Do they want a medal or something? There's such a thing as correlation and parity. For example, the Devs stated that the Attack action is a specific standard action and abilities that alter the Attack action (ie. Vital Strike) can't be used with the Use Special Ability action (ie. Cleave) or the Full-Attack action. But then an issue came up later with Spellstrike with people thinking that, even though it's listed as a Full-Round (use special ability) action, it still counts as a Full-Attack because it grants your iterative attacks; hence, they thought you could use things like Fight Defensively (and, by extension, Crane Style) and get a bonus attack through Haste. It was then clarified (again) in a FAQ that a specific Full-Round action does not qualify as a Full-Attack unless it's explicitly stated that it does (as is the case with Fast Bombs), so you actually can't fight defensively or get a bonus attack through Haste when using Spell Combat. This was already a point illustrated by the Vital Strike FAQ, but they had to go and make the point again. Again, here, we have an official FAQ answer stating that if your method of attack (ie. Weapon Finesse) alters the determining stat used for your attack to not use Strength for accuracy, it also alters the CMB calculation for maneuvers that rely on said weapon (or, by extension, method of attack). What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Pathfinder is a system so it's important for there to be parity among the different actions you can perform. Furthermore, it wouldn't make much sense for strength to affect how accurately you can shoot a weapon out of someone's hand.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Well it still doesn't matter to this group. 3 out of our 5 Players, 6 if you count the GM, are arguing that you use STR. Literally they are going to be kicked out if they continue on in tomorrows game. We have a Bola User, My Fighter(Archer), & then the GM who has similar NPCs to ours. They have caused 2 major scenes already the most recent of which almost got our GM, & Host, in trouble with their Landlord.

We are wondering if a Dev has clarified it or what just so they can see it and hopefully prevent it in the future. Though them seeing even SKR's post they probably would say that it doesn't count because it isn't on the FAQ or Errata.

EDIT: On on unrelated Note... Something fitting for what I just did to said GM's Ex-Cop Father.(Maybe NSFW...)

[Quandary]

Well I can see plenty of sense in saying that STR affects your ability to effectively Sunder/Grapple/etc at range with a bow, ultra accurate DEX doesn't help you with the force needed to effect something like that.. What doesn't make sense is if your bow is limited to a certain STR limit for damage, why that STR limit wouldn't also apply to STR used for CMB - but it doesn't per RAW. That said, I would just go with DEX for all ranged CMBs by default, no matter what type of CMB.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I agree with you so does my GM. I am mainly looking for a way to get those who complain that it isn't "RAW" some clarification either way.

But I can see the Accuracy. Plus most of the STR Limits on a Bow would effect the Damage on a Sunder & Such. Heck it is a Trope to get pinned to a tree or such with an Arrow or have a super accurate shot disarm someone. There even is a minor trope for a shot to break a sword or bow.

I believe it was a GRRM Novel that had an archer render another archer's bow useless when his arrow cut the bow string. Then the archer shoots and pins a knight's Left Forearm and Right Hand to his Left Shoulder while shattering the knight's Longsword in the process.

[Kazaan]

If you can tolerate them being ignorant, more power to you. But the FAQ has already been written and it is not only for Weapon Finesse but also any other applicable abilities. Personally, I couldn't tolerate ignorance in the face of that and I'd probably fire the GM and find a new game group at that point.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Umm you did read where he said the GM agrees with him, right?

[Kazaan]

Oh, I get it. I misread that and thought that he was including GM in the group that was arguing for Str. But yeah, their position basically amounts to, "OK, so this ability doesn't allow me to use my Natural Attacks... but what about a Tail Swipe? Hmm? That doesn't use any arms, see my point?"

[Bigdaddyjug]

The only problem I have with the FAQ is that it refers specifically to Weapon Finesse, which has absolutely nothing to do with ranged weapons. It's very nice to know about for the ninja I'm playing in RotRL, though.

[Kazaan]

Weapon Finesse allows you to use Dex in place of Str for attack rolls. And according to the FAQ, this also applies to the CMB for Trip, Sunder, and Disarm combat maneuvers.

And you think that, since this FAQ specifically refers to Weapon Finesse... that if I have a Guided weapon which allows me to use Wis in place of Str for attack rolls, we need a whole new FAQ specifically for the Guided weapon property and any other specific ability that allows you to swap Str for some other stat in determining Attack rolls and CMB for weapon-based maneuvers? Ain't nobody got time fo' that.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Really all they need to do is alter the wording of the Current FAQ to cover all of it. It would only require a little bit of changes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

How about an entire thread of posters agreeing you use Dex?

I also agree you use Dex, btw.

[Azaelas Fayth]

So far they have actually cursed at the forums. Needless to say they are out of the group. So meh. Now it is simply a way to help future players to make sense of it.

[Quandary]

Well, the issue does seem worth revisiting via FAQ because there are broader issues - unlike the Blog's synopsis if we are 'delivering' CMBs via arrows (using DEX) then all weapon bonuses should also apply. There are a few other such 'exceptions' to what the Blog spells out. Since the Blog for Maneuvers with Weapons still isn't added to the FAQ, probably a good thing to take care all at once.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Where is that Blog? Really for this one part they can just switch some words out and viola you got it taken care of.

[Drakkiel]

The FAQ mentions Weapon Finesse because that was the most common way people were "attempting" to use DEX for attack rolls, outside of getting Agile Maneuvers. Unless you take the archer archetype or some other ability I don't know about you cannot do a combat maneuver with a ranged weapon (like a bow). The FAQ simply states that if you use some other ability for your attack rolls, be it Dex, Wis, Int, or even Cha (Dashing Swordsman anyone)...that you use those same bonuses on any maneuvers you use that replace melee attacks(disarm, sunder, trip). The archer archetype is a special case also since they can choose grapple and bull rush. Now the FAQ does mention that NORMALLY you only use a weapon for those specific three maneuvers, but in the case of the archer fighter he/she uses the weapon for ALL of the maneuvers that they choose so I would still say they use Dex for those as well

Here's the FAQ for those that need it...

Weapon Finesse FAQ wrote:

It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.

Bold 1: My point about it NORMALLY being those because they are the ones NORMALLY being used to do the maneuver, different for an archer fighter

Bold 2: Now this says you still use STR for maneuvers other than disarm, trip and sunder, but again that's because you NORMALLY don't use a weapon to bull rush or grapple. (the whip comes to mind)

So you use Dex to attack with a bow...you use the bow to do all the maneuvers...you use Dex for the maneuvers, seems like the FAQ supports that just fine.

Glad your GM agrees with you btw