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Paizo changed how Ability penalties work in Pathfinder compared to 3.5.
In D&D 3.5 you recalculated your Ability score based on the penalty and then worked out the new modifier based upon the adjusted score. Examples:
Dexterity Score of 16 (+3 modifier) suffering a -1 Dexterity penalty results in a temporary Dexterity Score of 15 and a +2 Modifier.
Dexterity Score of 16 (+3 modifier) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in a temporary Dexterity Score of 12 and a +1 Modifier.
In Pathfinder you don't amend your ability score or modifier, instead you simply suffer a -1 penalty to skills and statistics for every 2 points of ability penalty you suffer. Examples:
Dexterity Score of 16 (+3 modifier) suffering a -1 Dexterity penalty results in no change to the Score or Modifier and there is not even a penalty applied (so no effect really)
Dexterity Score of 16 (+3 modifier) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in -2 penalty to Dexterity related stats and skills and thus an effective Dexterity modifier of +1.
Now, my question is whether Dexterity Ability penalties stack with losing Dexterity Bonus to AC (and thus CMD)?
E.g a unarmoured character with a BAB of +1, Strength of 12 (+1 modifier) and Dexterity 16 (+3 modifier) is flat-footed in the first round of combat and so has an AC of 10 (normally 13) and a CMD of 12 (normally 15).
If the character is then struck by a spell that imposes a -2 Dexterity penalty before he has his action (i.e. he is also still flatfooted) is his AC calculated as 9 (10 for being flat-footed -1 for the -2 Dex penalty) and his CMD calculated as 11 (12 for being flat-footed -1 for the -2 Dex penalty)?
Apply the penalties and then deny the dexterity bonus to AC.
SO, if he suffers -2 to dex, it becomes 14 for a +2 Bonus. Now take away the bonus for an AC of 10.
If he had a 12 Dex for a +1 Bonus to AC and took a penalty of -4 Dex for a Dex of 8 and a -1 Penalty to AC it would be AC 9. Then flat-footed it would still be 9 as there is no dexterity bonus to AC.
SO, if he suffers -2 to dex, it becomes 14 for a +2 Bonus. Now take away the bonus for an AC of 10.
He literally explained in the first post how ability damage works differently in Pathfinder than in 3.5, so you don't end up with a Dexterity of 14, you end up with a Dexterity of 16 and a -1 penalty to a number of things Dex affects.
So, ultimately, by RAW, yes, you'd end up losing your Dexterity bonus to AC and then applying the penalty from your Dexterity damage.
This is obviously stupid, so don't actually run it that way, but it's the way it works.
Pathfinder tried to help streamline things with their ability damage rule, but in my experience and opinion, it just made everything worse. Dropping your score as you took damage was easy and intuitive for everyone I ever played with (and as the post above mine indicates, most people just assume it still works that way), while taking damage separately and just applying penalties is awkward and weird and leads to situations like this.
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Apply the penalties and then deny the dexterity bonus to AC.
SO, if he suffers -2 to dex, it becomes 14 for a +2 Bonus. Now take away the bonus for an AC of 10.
If he had a 12 Dex for a +1 Bonus to AC and took a penalty of -4 Dex for a Dex of 8 and a -1 Penalty to AC it would be AC 9. Then flat-footed it would still be 9 as there is no dexterity bonus to AC.
If you were talking about D&D 3.5 I would completely agree with you, but in Pathfinder Ability Damage and Ability Penalties do not actually change your ability score, so with a -2 Dex penalty his Dexterity doesn't become 14, it remains at 16, and thus his Dex modifier remains at +3.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
[...]
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
[...]
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die.
Emphasis is mine. So ability penalties function like ability damage (except they can't kill or KO you) and neither actually reduce your ability score*.
This is underlined by the fact that a character with an even numbered ability score who suffers a -1 penalty does not suffer any effect in PF (if penalties did reduce your ability score such a scenario should result in a lower ability modifier).
So the way I see it is that even if you apply the penalty first it makes no difference:
Dex 16 (+3 modifier) base AC of 13, apply the 2 points of Dexterity Penalty for a -1 to AC and an AC of 12. Then remove the Dex Bonus (which is still +3 as neither Dex score or modifier are actually affected and remain at their original values) to get AC of 9.
*Though I note that later on in that section it states "In essence,
penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1." which directly contradicts the fact that penalties don't actually reduce your ability scores! And I don't think Paizo can even blame that on a simple failure to update some 3.5 SRD text.
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So, ultimately, by RAW, yes, you'd end up losing your Dexterity bonus to AC and then applying the penalty from your Dexterity damage.
This is obviously stupid, so don't actually run it that way, but it's the way it works.
Unfortunately I only ever play Pathfinder RPG as part of Pathfinder Society organised play, so I have to play by the RAW.
I really could do with an answer on this because as well as the scenario I gave (a PC is flat-footed and then gets hit by a spell) it also applies when you Pin a foe you are grappling. You retain the Grappled condition (-4 Dexterity Penalty) but also lose your Dex Bonus to AC (and thus CMD). So does anyone who pins a foe have an AC before armour of 8 (or worse) regardless of Dexterity Bonus? And if you CMD is so affected it makes it even easier to escape the grapple when Pinned than when just grappled.
So obviously I played 3.5 for too long first but:
So, ultimately, by RAW, yes, you'd end up losing your Dexterity bonus to AC and then applying the penalty from your Dexterity damage.
Why?
In the first example your bonus to AC is +3. Then you lose the benefit of that bonus. You didn't get a minus 6 pelanty, you just can't apply it. Then the damage from the first example brings your bonus to AC to a +1 making your AC 11.
Otherwise I think it is Double Jeporady. Of course there might be some offical ruling that I am not aware of, but I think that damge is first, then loss of bonus. If you had another affect that gave you a +100 You wouldn't take a -3 for flat footed and then add plus 100 for a +97, right?
Penalties and bonuses are applied in the exact same fassion.
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Then the damage from the first example brings your bonus to AC to a +1 making your AC 11.
This is the bit I disagree with. The Dexterity penalty does not reduce your Dex Bonus at all (that's part of the change in PF) rather it imposes "a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability"; Armour Class is a statistic that is based on Dexterity so the 2 points of Dexterity Penalty is effectively a -1 penalty to AC.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
So effectively you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC and suffer a -1 penalty to AC both of which apply (just like when you suffer the Blind condition you suffer a –2 penalty to Armour Class and lose your Dexterity bonus to AC)
So obviously I played 3.5 for too long first but:
So, ultimately, by RAW, yes, you'd end up losing your Dexterity bonus to AC and then applying the penalty from your Dexterity damage.Why?
In the first example your bonus to AC is +3. Then you lose the benefit of that bonus. You didn't get a minus 6 pelanty, you just can't apply it. Then the damage from the first example brings your bonus to AC to a +1 making your AC 11.
As written, dex pentalties don't influence your dexterity bonus to AC, they're just applied to your armor class directly.
That's the reasoning behind DigitalMage's following line:
"Dex 16 (+3 modifier) base AC of 13, apply the 2 points of Dexterity Penalty for a -1 to AC and an AC of 12. Then remove the Dex Bonus (which is still +3 as neither Dex score or modifier are actually affected and remain at their original values) to get AC of 9."
When trying to get my head around this originally, I wondered if this would work both ways. It doesn't, because things that remove ones dexterity bonus to AC obviously remove things that are called a dexterity bonus.
I ran into an oddity while trying to figure this out though:
AC is defined as:
10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
The section continues to talk about "dexterity bonus" instead of "dexterity modifier", without ever equating the two, which is a clumsy thing to do considering that ability bonuses are defined in the rules as something entirely different from ability modifiers.
RAW, one wouldn't lose ones dexterity modifier when confronted with effects that deny ones dexterity bonus to AC.
EDITNinja'd
That's.... wow.... that's.... just wow. Problem that you can run into if you aren't applying it as a penalty and are just reducing from the top is what happens if you have feats / abils / whatevers that have attribute pre-reqs. Are you still able to use them or not after taking a penalty / damage / drain? Either way, you end up with a lot of edge cases....
linky-dink to SRD on Abil damage.
I'd suggest that it's supposed to be a little sub equation in there somewhere of "When including bonus or penalty from <stat>, subtract the penalty from ability damage from the number you add before adding it."... but it's not written anything like that. Based on what is in the SRD
- Str damage reduces my melee attack rolls, with no allowance for Finesse or the +Wis (guided?) attack
- Str damage drops my defence when I've got Agile Manoeuvres.
- Does that also mean if I'm in full plate (Max dex +1) and I take Dex damage that I'm also dropped my AC even if I have dex of 20 (before my 2 points of damage)
Though on the plus side, though...
- You only drop your penalty off 2H attacks (Isn't it +1 1/2 for 2H on a 2H weapon?)
- Char damaged doesn't affect a Pally's Smite
- Wis damage doesn't affect a guided weapon property
- Dex damage doesn't affect finesse
... Or alternately, plead the following as the core rule
"This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
and that the specifics there are examples and guidelines not designed to be an exhaustive or complete list (or to take into account the cases as described above). [edit] and that the list is just meant to provide examples and reminders about places where those stats commonly come into play.
From there, it's a merry hop, skip and a jump to "Flat footed / denied Dex AC is not based on your Dex any more (as your dex is a positive bonus), therefore the penalty does not apply."
With a little mental juxtaposition you can even (just) manage to make it such that the penalty still applies. Whether to add Dex or not to the equation is a dex based statistic, based on if the overall bonus is positive or negative. As a dex based statistic, the penalty applies there to that calculation. If the calculated Dex bonus to AC is positive, it's ignored. Otherwise, it's included (as a dex penalty to AC would normally be).
But I can't help you with full plate.
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From there, it's a merry hop, skip and a jump to "Flat footed / denied Dex AC is not based on your Dex any more (as your dex is a positive bonus), therefore the penalty does not apply."
That wouldn't work, AC is always based on Dexterity whether you get to apply a bonus or not, because a negative Dexterity modifier always applies (flat-footed or not).
So yeah, that does mean if you're in full plate (Max dex +1) and you take 2 points of Dex damage your AC suffers a -1 penalty even if you have dex of 20 (before the 2 points of Dexterity damage). Under D&D 3.5 rules though, you wouldn't suffer such a penalty.
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Are you still able to use them or not after taking a penalty / damage / drain?
Ability Damage and Penalties don't reduce the score, so you wouldn't lose access to Feats with an Ability score pre-requisite (one of the benefits of the Pathfinder change!)
Ability Drain does reduce the score however, and so you could lose access.
- Str damage reduces my melee attack rolls, with no allowance for Finesse or the +Wis (guided?) attack
- Str damage drops my defence when I've got Agile Manoeuvres.
The rules say "Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)."
As a GM I would argue that the "(if they rely on Strength)" clause applies to the "melee attack rolls" as well as the "weapon damage rolls" and so attack rolls that use Weapon Finesse wouldn't be affected.
By RAW however, CMB would be affected (unless you are smaller than Small) even if you had Agile Manoevures. Personally, as a GM in a private game I wouldn't have it apply (and though it may be technically wrong to do so, I would do the same in PFS).
My point is that the penalty is to the Dex based statistic. As such, it is added in when all the Dex based bonuses are added in.
Dex Bonus (+3) + Dex Penalty (-2) gives Bonus to AC (+1).
Flat-Footed makes you lose that bonus.
SO flat-footed you lose the +1 for +0.
I do not believe there is any reason to lose it for +0 and then add the -2 penalty to AC for a total of -2.
It is not a straight -2 to AC. It is a -2 to the Dex Bonus of AC. That may very well equate to a -2 to AC, but it is not a straight -2 to AC.
If you take it after the loss, you are putting it in two different places and giving it more power.
If it was a bonus to Dex based rolls and skills and statistics, it would be clear. You would not add it to the AC after you lost the bonus to AC. Why would you do it with the penalty?
In other words, Armor class is not a statistic that is based on the Dex Bonus. The Dex Bonus to Armor class is the statistic that is based on the Dex Bonus.
If you had a -1,000,000 Dex Penalty, your Dex Bonus to AC could still never be lower that -5. You would not figure out your AC normally than take off 500,000 to your AC.
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My point is that the penalty is to the Dex based statistic.
Correct it is a penalty to the Dex based statistic of Armour Class.
It is not a straight -2 to AC.
It is though!
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Ref lex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class
It is a -2 to the Dex Bonus of AC.
That isn't what is stated in the RAW (and if it were it would be a -2 to the Dex Modifier, not just the bonus).
If you take it after the loss, you are putting it in two different places and giving it more power.
I am just trying to understand the RAW, if anyone gave it more power it was Paizo.
If it was a bonus to Dex based rolls and skills and statistics, it would be clear. You would not add it to the AC after you lost the bonus to AC. Why would you do it with the penalty?
Actually, Ability Bonuses work in the same way, so a Dexterity Bonus would give a bonus to AC even if you were denied your Dex bonus to AC. This way a character with Dexterity 5 (-3 Modifier) who gained a 4 point Dexterity Bonus would get to apply the +2 to AC giving him a base AC of 9.
Of course this does create the odd situation that a Dex Score bonus could end up increasing your base AC above 10 even though you are denied your dex bonus to AC.
Yep, that doesn't make sense but it seems like a valid interpretation of the RAW. TBH the more I think about this the more of a mess it seems to be.
Yep, that doesn't make sense but it seems like a valid interpretation of the RAW. TBH the more I think about this the more of a mess it seems to be.
We can agree on this!
Actually, Ability Bonuses work in the same way, so a Dexterity Bonus would give a bonus to AC even if you were denied your Dex bonus to AC. This way a character with Dexterity 5 (-3 Modifier) who gained a 4 point Dexterity Bonus would get to apply the +2 to AC giving him a base AC of 9.
Of course this does create the odd situation that a Dex Score bonus could end up increasing your base AC above 10 even though you are denied your dex bonus to AC.
Yep, that doesn't make sense but it seems like a valid interpretation of the RAW. TBH the more I think about this the more of a mess it seems to be.
One important question is: what is the type of the indirect bonuses to stats and rolls resulting from bonuses to ability scores? Answering that question clears up much of the confusion, but little of the lack of making sense.
Do they share the type of the originating bonus, i.e. is does Cat's Grace's enhancement bonus to dexterity create an enhancement bonus to armor class?
Do they filter through the ability score and take on a type based on the ability score, i.e. does Cat's Grace's enhancement bonus to dexterity create a dexterity bonus to armor class?
Are they untyped?
RAW, I'd say they're untyped, because of "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." This rule ignores the type of the original bonus in its text and creates a flat out +1 untyped bonus.
This implies that a temporary bonus to dexterity would indeed persist through being denied ones dexterity bonus to AC. Apart from being completely counterintuitive, it causes further oddities, like a Belt of Physical Might with a dexterity enhancement actually being better for your AC the first 24 hours you wear it!
This belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to two physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution) of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
There is no reason for the bonus type to change. If it was an enhancement bonus, it still is an enhancement bonus.
According to page 179 AC is
10 + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Dexterity Modifier + Other Modifiers
I claim that the desterity penalty affects AC through the Desterity Modifer section and not under Other Modifiers section. It allows the rules to be followed as written without applying the penalty two times.
The reverse, a bonus, would also fall under the Dexterity Modifier section. Any time you were denied your dexterity, it is clear that cat's grace would not help you.
While our brains automatically convert the +4 bonus to a +2 to AC, that isn't what really happens as that skips a step. It converts the Dexterity Modifier part (Not true dexterity, I know) of AC to a +2 bonus which gives us a +2 to AC.
If dexterity is taken out of the equation, such as "denied dexterity bonus" then the equation becomes:
10 + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Other Modifiers. So then why would you still apply the penalty of -2 to Dex based rolls and statistics if Dexterity is no longer a factor?
Of course if your Effective Dexterity Modifier becomes -1 or lower, it still applies, as it states on page 179, "If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, your AC does not change."
Following 'my way' you can apply all rules as written without putting a dex penalty in two different places. The key is to break down each part of the formula and apply it to the relevant part.
It is not a straight -2 to AC. It is a -2 to the Dex Bonus of AC. That may very well equate to a -2 to AC, but it is not a straight -2 to AC.
It is a straight -2 to AC, though.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom. A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
"The penalty also applies to your Armor Class"
It does not penalize your Dexterity's contribution to AC, it penalizes your AC directly. Again, this is the RAW answer and it is obviously stupid. In PFS, you're stuck, but in a home game, don't run it that way.