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I really liked the favored soul.
I feel the Oracle is intended to be the equivalent, but I just can't get into it, I could be just the class name oracle that bugs me?
Anyone who has more extended 3.5 experience and has played both classes chime in on play style and differences? Is the oracle pretty much the favored soul or are the vastly different?
They are very different in flavor and class. The Favored soul had very few class features. Energy resistance, wings, and some weapon specialization if I remember correctly. Oracle comes with a curse and a revelation and has no connection to a diety. I think the main thing is that in 3.5 you usually didn't have a lot of class features and in pathfinder you have an abundance and very few dead levels. They both have the same number of spells per day right?
What gets me about the oracle is that they always come with a curse. Dual cursed comes with a nice boon, but curses themselves feel strange. Being a class breaks my leg or makes me go blind? Favored souls were blessed and eventually grow wings and are given their dieties favored weapon. Oracles almost feel forsakened. Just look at saves, Favored soul got 3 good saved(which feels and is amazing), and oracles get one.
Ignoring curses and spellcasting in 3.5 and pathfinder, I don't even know if I like revelations. They aren't pick and choose, you have to pick one mystery and most only have one or two revelations of interest. I wouldn't mind it if there was an oracle archetype that played spontaneous divine casting with different class features than what oracles are expected to play with.
yea youre right, they are missing the monk like saves, true so there is one down fall.... Teh curses dont bother me sooo much.... its got a nice boon/bane feel to it; wings i could care less about, there are ways to get those as an oracle too.... special weapon, it is missing that, but there are a few ways to build around that as well....
dual cursed oracle w/e they should have a dual mystery oracle (like a cross blooded sorc) then you could take something like battle and fire.
more thoughts?
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I'm the same way. I like the Favored Soul, but I just can't get into the Oracle. My only issue was that the Favored Soul didn't get Know Religion, something that was a lot worse in 3E than in PF, didn't get Turn Undead, and didn't get Domains. Not really an issue with them not getting these by themselves, as much is that pretty much means that Favored Souls could not qualify for nearly any divine-orientated Feat or Prestige Class, and was the one class that was hands-down even more MAD than the Cleric, but was not stuck in the healbot rut by it's very nature.
I don't like that the Oracle is a Cha based caster, and that it fails to get many of it's focused spells until too late. I don't really care for the curse either, but that's just my preference. In Golarion, I don't like that the Oracle was introduced just to steal some cool Cleric flavor and step on their toes. It really feels crammed in an area that really didn't need that sort of extra seperation and cramming. I personally also do not like the prevailence of x Rounds per day abilities in Pathfinder, which the Oracle seems full of, so in my opinion, the Favored Soul is just that much better. It's also a lot simpler and more straight foreward, while over half the Oracle options for most of their mysteries seem designed just to give NPC's for flavor.
In my experience, the Favored Soul kind of required the character to be very well rounded. They kind of played like the generic 3E Cleric, sort of able to survive most things so that they could get everyone else up, but you really needed to focus to be effective. It's one huge issue was that it just didn't synergize with itself, at all, and didn't allow for much sort of theme focusing, as it only had the Cleric's base spell list, not their domain spell options. The Oracle can, sometimes, but they also tend to get these too late to reall y matter. For example a 1st Level Fire Oracle is no different than an Oracle of Knowledge. Neither have any actual fire magic until later. The Oracle can do the Wizard thing of dumping all but Cha and Dex, and still be very effective. The Favored Soul used both Wis and Cha for spellcasting, meaning it generally had fairly weak DC's, leading to a lt of buffs rather than being an arcane-like divine spellcaster.
yea the draw back to the FVS was the dual stat casting, but everything else really seemed to jive, for me at least.
More or less Im looking to recreate the feel of my 3.5 FVS, as close as I can with a PF oracle.
anyone have ideas on how to build one, right now, when i look at rage prophet, i think THERES my FVS.... but im trying to do it with just an oracle. (name seems too girly too)
My plan would be to create a whole new class with different features and no curse or downsides, preferably with a whole new flavor.
could just import the FVS, what would it need to bring it up to PF speed?
wait so a level 12 FVS would have 12 energy resistance? thats seems a bit top heavy no?
I can see an option for one domain, like an inquisitor or a companionless druid.
Don't think we could do this with an oracle archetype?
or easier to translate the FVS?
the uber energy resistance seems a bit much.
I do want my good saves back.
So... make it a cleric archetype with spontaeous casting? I don't see any big problems with that, but I don't play divine casters. PF cleric and Oracle both have issues for me.
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Personally, I love what Paizo did with the Oracle. This is sort of how I saw it:
3.5 Cleric: Devotee of a god, channeling divine power through faith
3.5 Favored Soul: Also a devotee of a god, channeling divine power through faith (but with a crappier spellcasting system)
PF Cleric: Devotee of a god, channeling divine power through faith
PF Oracle: Vessel of a Divine Concept, channeling divine power through her very existence.
I'm speaking in hyperbole of course, so take it with a grain of salt. Paizo did a fine job of making the classes distinct in both mechanics and flavor. It gives players (and GMs) the opportunity to play around with divine magic without having to worship a higher power. Yes, you can do this by playing a "godless" cleric, but it's still different. Clerics are utterly devoted to their concept/god, where-as an Oracle is simply a conduit.
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If I where going to make a PF Favored Soul, I would probably do the 3.5 version of the class with these changes:
BaB: 3/4 (same)
HD: d8 (same)
Good Saves: Fort, Refl, and Will (same)
Skill Points: 4+Int (added planes and religion, as well as Fly, increased number of skills)
Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), *Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int)Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and any one skill as a class skill of the player's choice (reated to the deity).
Weapons: All Simple Weapons and the Deity's Favored Weapon (same)
Armor: All Light and Medium Armor, Light Shields, and Bucklers. (lose Heavy Shields)
Spells: I'd probably go with Wis only for spellcasting, but maybe keep both Wis and Cha, and use the exact same spell progression as the Sorcerer, except allow any Domain spell (of the player's choice)from any of the deity's domains and/or subdomains instead of the Bloodline spells. (a lot of small changes).
Other:Whenever the Favored Soul would recieve Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or any of the Energy Resistances, they may instead choose any Feat they qualify for.
I'd rather see all martials. The dieties favored weapon is flavorful, but it pushes for you to pick a diety with a specific weapon, and rejects some waepons altogether. Yes, I like Calistria, but dislike Gorum. But if i want to wield a greatsword, or if I want to wield a nodachi.
Wis or Cha only would be nice, the need for 2 makes it too MAD and really hurts someone going for melee I think.
I think it looks like the cleric a bit much, who i really feel like doesn't get many if any class features.
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wait so a level 12 FVS would have 12 energy resistance? thats seems a bit top heavy no?
No and no. a Level 12 Favored Soul would have 2 seperate Energy Resistances, both at 10. S they Might have Fire Resistance 10 and Acid Resistanc 10. This never improves, though they get a third type at 15th level. A 12th Level Cleric would have Energy Resistance 20, which improves to full immunity. So it's actually kind of weak. Much more along the lines of nice to have and better than nothing, but definetly not something to really judge the class on. :)
I think that was talking about Kryt's idea of 1 at every level. It was mentioned earlier.(I like it btw.)
Why does the Oracle have horrible saves when compared to other divine casters? Makes no sense....
I onced played a Dwarven Oracle of Battle and it just did not shine as well as if I had played a Dwarven Cleric of Battle.... Better Saves... more features.. can channel, ect
I wanted to play something different than the ole Dwarven Cleric but in the end everyone in the group noticed how crappy I was when compared to them. Failed too many Fort Saves and got 3 negative levels.... they pretty much forced me to play another character..
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I think that was talking about Kryt's idea of 1 at every level. It was mentioned earlier.(I like it btw.)
Ok, I was completly lost on that one. I couldn't understand how they where getting those numbers. :)
I guess I missed that post in editing, but makes sense now.
Why does the Oracle have horrible saves when compared to other divine casters? Makes no sense....
I thin that Paizo wanted to keep a little bit of balance in there. Otherwise the Oracle would be equal to or btter than the Cleric on all fronts. The Oracle gets to pick and chose it's calss features level by level where the Cleric picks everything at level 1, only. Oracle has better skills and more of them. Oracles has potentual to have better weapons and armor than the cleric (Oracle of battle vs Craptastic Cleric of War and Str). A Fire Oracle can cast their fire spells over and over while the Fire Cleric can do it a whole one time a day. As a divine caster, spontanious is leaps and bounds above prepped casting as a huge portion of the Cleric/Oracle spell list is just bad, meaning both are probably ging to have very close to the same spells to use per day, but the Oracle doesn't need to worry so much about resouce management (I only have 1 Lesser Restoration!!!) and can use what they need on the spot, while both will very likely get scrolls and wands of the same spells they want to have just in case, but are not worth a spell slot/known each day.
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Why does the Oracle have horrible saves when compared to other divine casters? Makes no sense....
I onced played a Dwarven Oracle of Battle and it just did not shine as well as if I had played a Dwarven Cleric of Battle.... Better Saves... more features.. can channel, ect
I wanted to play something different than the ole Dwarven Cleric but in the end everyone in the group noticed how crappy I was when compared to them. Failed too many Fort Saves and got 3 negative levels.... they pretty much forced me to play another character..
I completely agree. The class is one of the few that i have great distaste for and dont see how it can b praised as it is on these forums from most of the community. The Curse alone is filth and the choices of powers that are obtained by its Mysteries are dismal. For the most part only a few of the Mysteries are good and of those there is only at best 3 maybe 4 good Revelations to them. There saves are appalling as u mentioned as well which is even more salt for there wounded bodies, blinded eyes, and silent tongues. Whats worse in my eyes is that there only good archetype, Black-Blooded Oracle, makes them treated as an undead with out any of the real benefits of being an undead other than they cna be healed by negative energy but still take all of the penalties of undeath.
Not really sure what the actual goal of the oracle class was when it came out, the favore soul was a good frame work to start from, instead there are features here in the oracle that seem more witchy than the witch.
I hate when a topic gets buried and you cant find your own thread...
Eh, it happens. Overnight things shift on forums sometimes.
And yeah, I feel like oracles, and witches have this vagueness surrounding them in some areas. I guess its how they draw from supernatural abilities. Was awkward to explain my patron at pfs becuase I didn't know how that worked at all.
yea... thats what im saying too... I got so much giddy fun out of one single favored soul I played before PF beta came out.... Then here we have oracle and I build one and im like huh, thats a better witch than the witch. But I can get what im looking for out of it.
I feel that oracle of battle = done better by rage prophet but it takes too long to get cool, and seems you can only really build it right one way, any other options feel wrong.
Of course there is option just to pull a favored soul over and play him, but it feels out of water now, I haven't so much as cracked a 3.5 book since 2009.
A oracle archetype with some heavy mods might help.
But apparently it sounds like everyone so far feels the same as I do (i was hoping to be wrong and people would say "no there is this option, or that thing...")
The problem is that the oracle is too different I think. There's no connection between people who like the oracle's fluff -- and it's one of the classes most inextricably linked to its fluff -- and people who like spontaneous full casters.
I couldn't disagree more. I love spontaneous casters (or more accurately, I hate prepared casters) and I love the oracle's fluff and flavor.
My group's houserule that bumps Sorcs and Oracles up a level for spells known/spells per day to make them equivalent to their prepared counterparts fixes 90% of any problems I'd have with the class, really.
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Honestly, what it kind of sounds like they want is more along the lines of a Barbarian Cleric or even an Inquisitor more than an Oracle. In 3.5, there where a few more options that also come very close, the Spontanious Cleric from Unearthed Arcana, which converted to Pathfinder would just need a few spells per day added in and go straight off the Cleric. There was the Mystic from Dragonlance, which was kind of like a Divine Sorcerer, they got Cleric spells and a single Domain, but where not tied to a deity at all, drawing their power from themselves, (discovered a new divine source in a time when there where no deities, and continued to evolve after that). In Pathfnder, I would essentually make them work off of the Druid progression, gaining a few strange powers as they level instead of Wild Shape, Venom Immunity, etc. . .
Another very cool idea is to make a Divine Magus, essentually trading in their spell list and "arcane" themed abilities for a combination of Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, and Inquisitor spells and the exact same mechanics for "divine" themed abilities.
Well,
The Favored soul was kinda a divine magus.
Favored soul felt like a 2.0 specialty priest.
Fight with a decent weapon, do what I want, mysterious origin, powers and spells.
Now the oracle has some of that, but then again it doesn't.
Something like the druid is a good way to think of it, some powers, some spells, some combat.
Could be a generalist, could take some focus, has some powers there are no other way to get.
Those powers are in no way based on alignment (good/evil axis).
A favored soul was a free spirit, it seems the oracle, although intended that way has to build so much on work arounds, that a decent one is always built the same way; like taking barbarian to get around/synergize with lame curse; or taking haunted because it's the least likely to bug you.
Inquisitor is probably closer to the feel of favored soul which is why i like it so much i think.
But I dont want to be from a church or an organization, just free willed, Like a sorcerer with armor and a sword.
Play an inquisitor of an ideal maybe? Can't do so in pfs, but in a homegame its not that far fetched. Don't call yourself an inquisitor, call yourself an adventurer!(I go for heretic and inflitrator archetypes myself)
A cleric with spontaneous casting is just nerfing himself right? Use that and martial proficiency maybe?
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing new things.
I want more revelation powers, inquisitor is cool....just not what im after.
Some archetype/feat tree that allowed high jacking of revelations from different mysteries would be nice too.
Id like things from battle to be 'automatic' in the progression, and be able to choose from things like flame and lore for example...
Favored soul had things you just got at certain levels (like energy resistance) but if you stick with a single mystery in oracle you get revelations, but you dont want any of the ones that are left, or they arent available at your level so you are forced to take something you have no care about, so the power slot is essentially wasted. Would rather trade it for a teamwork feat....
I mean no one said "oh you have a chicken eidolon? you cant take quadruped!" But they sure pigeon holed the oracle.
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A cleric with spontaneous casting is just nerfing himself right?
In some ways, but in others it isn't. The really cool advantage that the Spont Cleric has is that it can cast it's Domain Spells more than once a day (without scrolls or wands), which is where it's variaty really comes from. The Cleric Spell List by itself is pretty bland, and a lot of times, regardless of your "build" or "focus", you essentually have the majority of the same spells memorized as a Cleric with a very different focus. There just are not a lot of practical options.
The other major advantage that the Spon Cleric (and Oracle) have is not needing to worry about how many of a specific spell (specifically status removals) they have, as they can cast what they need as they need it, if they have it Known. If they don't, well they are in the exact same boat as a normal Cleric, they just don't have it. This is incredibly good for a support class caster, not in the broken or overpowered sense, but in the sense of removing one of the most major ooc annoying factors, like having to pick favorates between other payers who gets to not be poisoned or cursed any more. Pathfinder has also changed how a lot of the status effects work for being removed, making them not just removed, but requiring a check. That really hurts Clerics, who do a lot of thinking about what to prep and have their spell resource absolutely wasted on a bad roll. As a Spont Cleric, they can try again. It still hurts, but at least they can try. For the normal Cleric, it usually means that they just wasted a spell for absolutely nothing and can't do it again at all, which is very aggrivating for a player. It will still happen, but it cuts back on that a lot, indirectly cutting back on the 5-min work day, which benefits everyone.
It also means a 1st level Spont Cleric of Fire (or whatever) can actually cast Fire spells more than once per game, you know like a Fire Cleric should. :) It's got it's drawbacks, too, but it's not all bad or all good.
Not really sure what the actual goal of the oracle class was when it came out, the favore soul was a good frame work to start from, instead there are features here in the oracle that seem more witchy than the witch.
Maybe you should say goodbye to the idea that the oracle is the new favored soul because of spontaneous casting. The oracle is the high fantasy version of the Pythia, Teiresias, Cassandra (really, the only reason that there is no "no one believes you"-curse is that it simply could not stand up to meta-gaming players) etc. If you want a favoured soul the oracle will sorely disappoint you, it is meant for completely different character concepts.
Edit: There is a 3rd party PDF that could interest you. It has a magus archetype with access to sorcerer bloodlines. Magus with celestial bloodline might be closer to what you are looking for.
there is a none believes you curse in a 3pp.
there should be a way to do it tho...(the favored soul thing)
You can definitely do old things in new ways. Just saying goodbye to the favored soul forever becuase theres an oracle now is a pretty brutal way to put it, and its definitely not a good resolution if you liked favored soul but don't like the oracle for whatever reason(You can change fluff sure, but mechanically...)
Most conversions I see involve changing the skill list and adding in a few new powers for dead levels. Theres more than likely a way to do it.
Id rather find inventive ways to use the oracle to build a new soul, i hate class bloat and looking for obscure rules every time I level.
maybe an impromptu oracle archetype called "favored soul?" what would be change/ switch out?
Remove curses would be a start. Replace it and a few revelations with the weapon bonuses and energy resistance. Thats all I can really think of.
I dont entirely mind the curse, I could get some mileage out of it, And I like flaws and drawbacks to character development. I think it's lack luster advancement of powers and selection and the fact that the only way to get more weapons/armor other than burning a feat or two is to go battle oracle and then get stuck with those revelations.
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Just popping in to say that the Oracle is so much fun to play. I have two of them (a Life Mystery and a Dual-cursed Battle Mystery) and I love both of them.
I recall looking at the Favored Soul when I played 3.5 and thinking "meh," but the Oracle is awesome. I adore the spontaneous casting, the Curses are very flavorful, and Revelations can be super awesome.
However, I can say will all certainty that the Favored Soul and the Oracle are two different beasts. They are d8, 3/4 BAB, full spontaneous spellcasters, but those are the only similarities they share. :)
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I remember looking at the favored soul and thinking it was a lame sorcerer knockoff. Stat wise the only thing that was nice was the three good saves.
Fluffwise the oracle allows for so much that can be cool, how you design it. I have a PFS oracle who is 'beloved of Zyphus' in a warped stalker sense of the word. I have another who is a native American kitsume 'coyote' who basically acts foolish, for example having the blind curse butusing a ranged weapon to kill your enemies before you can see them' but is very effective.
Also Oracles better match RL historical/mythological personages than the favored soul. For example if I were stating--
Joan of Arc-- Battle oracle, no question.
Francis of Assisi--Nature Oracle
Moses-- Oracle w/cool homebrew 'stutter' curse. There is a Native American figure who would also have it, founder of the Iroquois Confederacy.
Tirseas-- Knowledge Oracle who got to know things intimately through his/her curse.
Many shamans, particularly possessed shamans common in early China, almost present day Japan, and common in some Native American and West African traditions.
Basically, the Oracle feelslike something that has existed in RL while the favored soul feels like some game designer was told to come up with a 'spontanous divine class' to cover some fan requests and built by someone who new nothing about religion other then perhaps going to a very mainline church.
Oracle=Direct inspiration from the divine.
Favored soul=WTF
Who in real life matches a wizard? I didn't know this was a requirement to be a class.
Divine scion PrC. It basically even means favored soul. Weapon focus, spec, and greater versions of the two, plus some of the class features (which seem a bit underpowered) have flavor enough for you. Aasimars a can get wings through feats. If you went cleric with a 2 lvl dip into paladin, you could recreate the save bonuses.
Just a thought.
Oracles are awesome. There are a nice variety of curses that can let your character have a noticeable handicap or just a minor inconvenience, and it's really fun to try and mix them with an appropriately thematic mystery. Easily my favorite class.
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Basically, the Oracle feelslike something that has existed in RL
I disagree. It just doesn't do it for me, no matter how much I try. But that just me.
while the favored soul feels like some game designer was told to come up with a 'spontanous divine class' to cover some fan requests and built by someone who new nothing about religion other then perhaps going to a very mainline church.
The thing is, it actually makes more sense than the Oracle. The fluff for the Oracle is that one or more deities at one point in the Oracles life (could have even been at birth) randomly chose them, granting them all kinds of cool powers above what even their most devoted priests (Clerics) can get, for absolutely free, and the Oracle is not bound to even follow or acknowledge the deities. All this power comes with some random curse, but it's one that supernaturally makes you more human than human, just because, and isn't really tied into anything else. It's just kind of there. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind an option like this for everyone for more RP reaspons, or or if the range was really lessened a lot.
Favored Souls, on the other hand are individuals that have come to their divine powers, awakened a portion of the past life or higher soul similar to a Sorcerer's Bloodline, or been granted a unique sort of understanding of faith with their deity ona more personal level. They do so on their own though, not being educated in religion, politics, magi theory, planar interactions, or as being the living mouthpieces and examples for others.
Erm... No Lazar, I'm looking at the fluffyness. Studying arcane powers gets me magic, great! Coming closer with god gives me magic, great! but to cast spontaneously I have to live with prewritten fluff and possibly break my leg? Umm... what?
I like fluff, don't get me wrong. I just think its wierd that a fluff forces me to somehow handicap myself. Its not nearly as friendly as just practicing to use a sword or coming closer to an ideal. I don't think theres another class that involves that as an entry fee, but you are free to correct me. I know I've been wrong before!
My favorite trope is actually having to die and come back from the dead. All greek heroes did it. Facing death, and coming back. That would be a very fancy entry fee, but not quiet as possible.