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TL;DR
I would love to hear from any PFS paladins who have taken the mount as their Divine Bond, and how effective it is as you level up.
Background
My PFS Paladin is a two handed Falchion wielding, Oath of Vengeance driven, front line fighter. I just hit 5th level and I've trying to sort out what the right decision is: an Axe Beak animal companion (via boon) or sword enhancement.
- On the sword, for one fight a day, you get a perfectly tuned weapon buff. Which is quite targeted and awesome; boosting my +1 keen falchion to be holy at need seems quite potent.
- For the Animal Companion, I get a ~40hp critter that (presumably) I can boost to good effect using Animal Archive. I am assuming that even if I can't ride it during underground fights, he can come with me and fight as a large animal companion. Surprising Charge lets him trip, he can flank... generally speaking I think I can play smart and improve my action economy ALL the time, not just for one fight a day.
It's a hard call given that I haven't played enough Pathfinder to know how it scales. What might work at 5th could become progressively useless (or even cannon fodder) at 11th in the middle of a boss battle. The ability to target a blade upgrade against the BBEG could make the difference between success and failure. But, I like the idea of having access to that action economy and a large-sized tripper. It's hard to see how it will work out!
For those PFS Pallies out there, what have your experiences be in practice? Have you seen the Mount work in practice? Did your holy axiomatic blade save the party from a TPK?
All enlightenment welcome :)
The weapon bond requires a standard action to be activated. That just sucks.
Strongest way to go for any melee Pally is therefor sacred servant (domain + planar ally <3 powerfull like crazy) - but Im not sure whether thats PFS legal.
I'd go for the mount.
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Does the Axe beak AC get Sudden Charge just like the Bestiary version of the animal? If so, get that as your Divine Bond and do it like yesterday. Charge up, have your Axe Beak use Sudden Charge to trip, and then resolve your attack with the falchion against a prone opponent. When he stands up, you and Beaky both get an AoO against him as well. Throw in Spirited Charge for some extra damage and things are looking pretty good. If you really want to ratchet up your single damage striking ability while mounted, you could consider taking Vital Strike as well, so you'd be hitting for 6d4 + STRx1.5 in addition to your mounts bite attack.
As to my personal experience using the mount option of Divine Bond in PFS: I actually used it for my halfling paladin who fought with a bow from the back of his riding dog. Being able to move and full attack was pretty sweet, the dog could go pretty much anywhere any other party member was capable of traveling, and having a highly intelligent celestial dog came in handy a surprisingly large number of times.
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(Cool that both first replies are in favor of the mount!)
@wasum: Sadly, My Oath'd pally means I can't take planar servant. The standard action seems annoying for the weapon, I agree. If I assume I'm using it for a crucial fight, it's no worse than what you have to take other set of buffs. Doesn't seem like a complete deal breaker.
@Ssalarn: Yup, the Axe Beak grows large and gets sudden charge at 4th level. My assumption though is that mounted charge opportunities are rare and far between in PFS.... If I were underground, would a Large sized animal companion I *don't* ride be viable into the higher levels? (eg, treat him like the animal companion of a druid.)
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(Cool that both first replies are in favor of the mount!)
@wasum: Sadly, My Oath'd pally means I can't take planar servant. The standard action seems annoying for the weapon, I agree. If I assume I'm using it for a crucial fight, it's no worse than what you have to take other set of buffs. Doesn't seem like a complete deal breaker.
@Ssalarn: Yup, the Axe Beak grows large and gets sudden charge at 4th level. My assumption though is that mounted charge opportunities are rare and far between in PFS.... If I were underground, would a Large sized animal companion I *don't* ride be viable into the higher levels? (eg, treat him like the animal companion of a druid.)
One of the newer feats I'd highly recommend you take for your Animal Companion is Narrow Frame from the Animal Archive. It eliminates the penalties for Squeezing and is essential for making large animal companions work well in situations like the one you're describing.
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One of the newer feats I'd highly recommend you take for your Animal Copmpanion is Narrow Frame from the Animal Archive. It eliminates the penalties for Squeezing and is essential for making large animal companions work well in situations like the one you're describing.
That seems fantastic! So, basically the remaining penalty is that his movement rate is cut down to 25ft in one tile corridors.
Still trying to decipher the rules around mounted combat in dungeons; would Narrow Frame make mounted combat for a medium PC/large mount in dungeons viable? Seems as well that I should get my hands on Animal Archive ...
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One of the newer feats I'd highly recommend you take for your Animal Copmpanion is Narrow Frame from the Animal Archive. It eliminates the penalties for Squeezing and is essential for making large animal companions work well in situations like the one you're describing.That seems fantastic! So, basically the remaining penalty is that his movement rate is cut down to 25ft in one tile corridors.
Still trying to decipher the rules around mounted combat in dungeons; would Narrow Frame make mounted combat for a medium PC/large mount in dungeons viable? Seems as well that I should get my hands on Animal Archive ...
Yeah, there's no weird combined sizing rules or anything (that I'm aware of, and I'm generally pretty knowledgeable on mounted combat) so if the mount fits, you can ride it.
Animal Archive is an excellent purchase. There's a couple issues with the one or two of the animal archetypes but everything else is really solid. Cool new animal feats, gear, archetypes, etc.Plus, it contains the new uber pet, the mighty panda....
Seriously, Pandas is rough man.
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TL;DR
I would love to hear from any PFS paladins who have taken the mount as their Divine Bond, and how effective it is as you level up.
I've found animal companions of most flavors lacking once you start to gain levels (they don't scale well). I once had an eldritch knight with the improved familiar feat. The concept of the winter wolf familiar was cool, but it was far too vulnerable. Once attacks really start to do damage they die. A heavy war horse has avg 19 HP and you don't get the celestial template applied to your mount until 11th level. So an attack you don't really care about cripples/kills Mr. Ed.
Any mount rules also break down anytime you go into a dungeon or the like, as your horse/griffin/whatever normally has to stay behind.
It's annoying that the bond takes a standard action, I grant wasum. That said, I've used that early/often and it has some flexibility (holy when you expect bad guys, defending when need defense, flaming if ther are rumors of trolls, keen is always nice to improve that threat range, etc)
It lasts for a minute/level so it typically lasts the encounter. It would be nice if it were a swift action, but some already grouse about paladins already. :)
An Axe Beak with Narrow Frame shouldn't have any issues navigating any dungeon that any other character can enter.
Animal Companions don't have quite as much HP as true characters, but this where abilities like Mounted Combat and Trick Riding come into play to help extend the longevity of your critter. Once you've negated a few hits, the only real thing you have to worry about is your buddy getting caught in a potent AOE. Fortunately, they get Evasion and the Axe Beak has pretty solid DEX.
We're talking about companions - not familiars. Yes, using a familiar in combat is no good idea at all, but the survivability of a mount at full druid level is quit good. Its offense will be lacking, but AC and HP should be fine - especially when chosing the right feats and getting some mithral barding.
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For reference (assuming Hero Lab is doing the math right!) at 5th level my (no barding, no feats) axe beak mount would have:
20 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 6 Int, 11 Wisdom, 10 Cha
37 HP, 16 AC, 50 ft speed
bite +7 (1d8+7)
+7 Fort, +7 Reflex, +1 Will
I don't know, he seems pretty damn tough to me at 5th! Assuming Narrow frame gives him "reach" into dungeons, even if I can't mount him I think he would have the survivability.
PS. Can you swift LoH your mount, given the use of Share Spells? I'm guessing not.
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How did it arrive at 37HP?
If following the animal companion rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions
A 5th level PC would have 5 HD for his mount (which would max at 40HP, correct?)
His 16 Con is worth an additional 15 HP at 5 HD, so it's pretty normal HP for an animal companion at that level.
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For reference (assuming Hero Lab is doing the math right!) at 5th level my (no barding, no feats) axe beak mount would have:
20 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 6 Int, 11 Wisdom, 10 Cha
37 HP, 16 AC, 50 ft speed
bite +7 (1d8+7)
+7 Fort, +7 Reflex, +1 WillI don't know, he seems pretty damn tough to me at 5th! Assuming Narrow frame gives him "reach" into dungeons, even if I can't mount him I think he would have the survivability.
PS. Can you swift LoH your mount, given the use of Share Spells? I'm guessing not.
Yeah, LoH isn't a spell sp Share Spells does nothing. You've got to spend the same action for him as you would for any other party member (other than yourself).
Add +1 Mithral Barding Chain Shirt and its AC will be nice as well. Or just get someone to cast mage armor.
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Thanks for all the excellent feedback! Any more PFS Pallies want to talk about how awesome the bonded weapon is?
Have been spending time with the build. On the Axe Beak, were I to take Narrow Frame (AA) , and the Tandem Trip teamwork feat (UC) I can roll twice (taking the higher roll) for Sudden Charge's free trip attempts.
A lot is hinging on Narrow Frame for me, where I would still get the benefit of the mount even underground/caves/anywhere but noble's manse :) It's not clear whether this would still let me ride, but if I can't, the bird is Large sized and can just focus on flanking and tripping out of reach.
All in all, mounted combat with Sudden Charge and Tandem Trip seem like a pretty good combo!
Also looking at the Bodyguard archetype from Animal Archive... get the Alertness feat while adjacent (+2 to Perception/Sense Motive) in trade for Share Spells; stay functional at -0 hp; etc. Seems quite awesome.
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Thanks for all the excellent feedback! Any more PFS Pallies want to talk about how awesome the bonded weapon is?
Have been spending time with the build. On the Axe Beak, were I to take Narrow Frame (AA) , and the Tandem Trip teamwork feat (UC) I can roll twice (taking the higher roll) for Sudden Charge's free trip attempts.
A lot is hinging on Narrow Frame for me, where I would still get the benefit of the mount even underground/caves/anywhere but noble's manse :) It's not clear whether this would still let me ride, but if I can't, the bird is Large sized and can just focus on flanking and tripping out of reach.
All in all, mounted combat with Sudden Charge and Tandem Trip seem like a pretty good combo!
Also looking at the Bodyguard archetype from Animal Archive... get the Alertness feat while adjacent (+2 to Perception/Sense Motive) in trade for Share Spells; stay functional at -0 hp; etc. Seems quite awesome.
An Axe Beak Paladin mount with the Bodyguard archetype and the above-mentioned feats sounds really, really good... I want one.
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I've been doing a halfling paladin with the Shining Knight archetype and I am enjoying it so far - as a halfling with a riding dog mount, I've found location isn't nearly as big an issue as it is in a lot of PFS adventures when your mount is medium sized, and a wand of spider climb takes care of ladders/tunnels and such.
It's certainly not optimized, but it's fun, and I'll take fun over optimized any day.
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
An Axe Beak Paladin mount with the Bodyguard archetype and the above-mentioned feats sounds really, really good... I want one.
I'm still not clear on whether Paladin Mounts qualify to use those animal archetypes. Hero Lab won't let you do this right now, but I don't know if it's a feature or a bug :)
Paladin Mounts are supposed to qualify as Animal Companions for all intents and purposes according to RAW, I would think? Including taking Animal Archetypes from Animal Archive?
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An Axe Beak Paladin mount with the Bodyguard archetype and the above-mentioned feats sounds really, really good... I want one.I'm still not clear on whether Paladin Mounts qualify to use those animal archetypes. Hero Lab won't let you do this right now, but I don't know if it's a feature or a bug :)
Paladin Mounts are supposed to qualify as Animal Companions for all intents and purposes according to RAW, I would think? Including taking Animal Archetypes from Animal Archive?
That is my understanding, yes. The description of the mount even says
"This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level."So they should be able to take the archetype just like any other Animal Companion.
you've always been able to use the paladins mount as an animal companion per se, but the duration isnt permanent like with a real animal companion
typical mount builds are made with small characters (usually a halfling or gnome) so their mount is medium and wont have any issue maneuvering in dungeons
there are actually some sick mounted builds you can make this way
bonded weapon taking a standard action is hardly a weakness in a well rounded party where your casters are supposed to control the battlefield to buy you at least one or two turns to buff
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you've always been able to use the paladins mount as an animal companion per se, but the duration isnt permanent like with a real animal companion
typical mount builds are made with small characters (usually a halfling or gnome) so their mount is medium and wont have any issue maneuvering in dungeons
there are actually some sick mounted builds you can make this way
bonded weapon taking a standard action is hardly a weakness in a well rounded party where your casters are supposed to control the battlefield to buy you at least one or two turns to buff
If there's a smite-able target that you can charge, you'll be doing upwards of 60+ points of damage per charge at 6th level even with a small paladin on a medium mount.
... and that's not even an optimized build.