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So I don't like the idea of the Black Rider using geas on the PCs, I think it will make even those of them who would originally go with the plan from thier free will resist it with all their might. It just seems like a bad idea for the game.
So I thought that instead of doing that, the black rider should fill the PCs minds with visions of how the terrible, never ending winter that only Baba Yaga can prevent will bring ruing to Golarion.
At first they will see the town Waldsby, where they started the AP. The town would be a desolate place, and several ice trolls will lumber through it. Then they will each see their own point of origin, see their very home covered with snow, icicels hanging from the roof, and maybe catch a glimpse of their family or friends, huddled miserably around a fire.
The the vision will "zoom out" and start showing famous places - the PCs will see a road of bones leading into Absalom, the once grand city now a home to terrified people and savage winter monsters. The sea is frozen and filled with the cracked hulls of broken ships that have not been pulled ashore fast enough. The images will go on and on, coming ever faster, but somehow the PCs could see and feel all of them, could understand their dreadful meaning. They would see years go by, they would see forests dying, choked away from the sun that gave them light. They would small towns and villages, the kind that are just too far away from any big cities, become empty as all thier residents, who were unprepared for the harsh weather and didn't have the knowledge to survive it, all just died away - if they were lucky, their frozen corpses lie in graves in the cold earth. If they weren't, they are now shambling undead, pale blue flesh glittering with ice under the moonlight.
Eventualy, after what may seem like hours upon hours of visions, even though in the real world only moments have passed, the PCs will witness the most terrible visage of all - their own future in the winter world. Some of them see themselves dead, fallen at some road side, perhaps when trying to return home. Some see themselves survive - they see gaunt, starving, fearful and lonely creatures, waking up each morning to another day of fighting just to stay alive in the hostile environment.
And then, all of a sudden, the visions die away, and when the PCs become awere of the world around them again, the Black Rider is already dead, and the winter portal stands ahead of them. Hearts filled with dread and unserstanding, the howling wind around them should suddenly feel colder, and the pearly white of the snow around them somehow a more sinister color, a color meaning a death and an end to all they know and cherish.
I know that for my players, this would be very motivating and a great moment to roleplay about, so that's the version of events I'm using. If someone has an idea how to improve it, I'll be happy to hear :)
Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
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This sounds so awesome! I'm going to do same thing with our group, since the geas feels like unnecessary railroading. This gives them valid reason and makes them fear their responsibility a little.
PC:s could also see endless fields of windmills, grinding up...something, that is not wheat. And at the end, city of ice spires looms everywhere, and you cannot hide from it's shadow.
This is so great AP :D
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I'm not sure why you can't use this idea in conjunction with the Geas, but I like the visuals you give.
You are right, obviously, this idea CAN be used in cinjuction with the geas, but the reason I came up with it during my mental search for a replacement for the geas. I think that 99% of the time, those visions of doom should be enough and you won't have to dump a Geas on your PCs just to ensure they don't abandon their quest.
Really I think it is a matter of group temperament. Lord Snow sounds like they knows their players well. The idea is to get those players invested and keep them invested. Some groups are more inclined to "do the right thing" when its a choice.
For those that need a bit more incentive, there's an option.
An important thing to remember here is that the black riders mantle isn't only a geas. It imparts a +2 to one ability score and allows the bypass of several wards later in the quest.
Without this, the PCs do not get the +2, or the bypass of the ward. So if you want to give them visions and just have the rider die, thats fine, but be prepared to have things be more difficult and potentially stonewalled later on.
Baba Yaga is an evil witch, The current queen is an evil witch, I could see a party saying, why help one of them, let them kill each other. Well Baba Yaga is powerful and smart, which is why she put several fail safes in order, the passing of the mantle is but one of them, empowers the PCs as well as binds them (because thematically that's how evil magic should work).
This is something that happens TO the PCs not something by choice. They might even know about the bad side effects of the mantle, and should they, it's simply another plot device, should hey want to try and undo it.
An important thing to remember here is that the black riders mantle isn't only a geas. It imparts a +2 to one ability score and allows the bypass of several wards later in the quest.
Without this, the PCs do not get the +2, or the bypass of the ward. So if you want to give them visions and just have the rider die, thats fine, but be prepared to have things be more difficult and potentially stonewalled later on.
Lord Snow,
Pendagast does have a point here. I still think there is a way around the need to use a geas but you might want to consider just downplaying that aspect of it until you get a chance to review Chapter Two and later volumes. (Sorry, I'm just not going to give spoilers the day it starts to ship to subscribers!)
But this is very minor:
Doting this for continued reading/commenting. (I have decided, that Reign of Winter will be the next AP I GM for my group, and I see the points that both Lord Snow and Pendagast are making, and feel like my group would need a sort of "balance" between the geas as written/presented in the 1st part of the RoW AP ... and the "horrible visions of the future if left unchecked" that Lord Snow proposes).
Anyway, lots of good ideas/suggestions here. :)
Dean
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An important thing to remember here is that the black riders mantle isn't only a geas. It imparts a +2 to one ability score and allows the bypass of several wards later in the quest.
Without this, the PCs do not get the +2, or the bypass of the ward. So if you want to give them visions and just have the rider die, thats fine, but be prepared to have things be more difficult and potentially stonewalled later on.
Lord Snow,
Pendagast does have a point here. I still think there is a way around the need to use a geas but you might want to consider just downplaying that aspect of it until you get a chance to review Chapter Two and later volumes. (Sorry, I'm just not going to give spoilers the day it starts to ship to subscribers!)
But this is very minor:
** spoiler omitted **
First: congrats! I can't imagine how exciting it is to have an AP volume you penned down be shipped to thousands around the world.
About the black mantle though, I can't see any reason in the world not to just give the mantle to the PCs anyway, without any Geas effect attached to it, and just rule that the powers it gives them disappear if they drop the quest to free Baba Yaga. That way I can still easily use the "visions of doom", the PCs still have the black mantle (as expected by the plot of the AP) but instead of feeling pushed into doing something they don't want, they feel theyv'e made the only descision avilable to them - they can't just allow those things they saw happening come true from their nightmarish visions, right?
Eventualy it's the option of using a cane (I'll whack ya if ya don't go save baba yaga - you are magically compulsed!) or a carrot (see this nice +2 bonus from the Black Mantle? it's only there as long as you try to free Baba Yaga). I prefer the second attitude quite a lot over the first one...
I hope, BTW, that the "cane or carrot" metaphor exists in the english language and American culture... if it's not, that kind of makes this post goofy :P
First: congrats! I can't imagine how exciting it is to have an AP volume you penned down be shipped to thousands around the world.
About the black mantle though, I can't see any reason in the world not to just give the mantle to the PCs anyway, without any Geas effect attached to it, and just rule that the powers it gives them disappear if they drop the quest to free Baba Yaga. That way I can still easily use the "visions of doom", the PCs still have the black mantle (as expected by the plot of the AP) but instead of feeling pushed into doing something they don't want, they feel theyv'e made the only descision avilable to them - they can't just allow those things they saw happening come true from their nightmarish visions, right?
Eventualy it's the option of using a cane (I'll whack ya if ya don't go save baba yaga - you are magically compulsed!) or a carrot (see this nice +2 bonus from the Black Mantle? it's only there as long as you try to free Baba Yaga). I prefer the second attitude quite a lot over the first one...
I hope, BTW, that the "cane or carrot" metaphor exists in the english language and American culture... if it's not, that kind of makes...
Carrot and cane translate just fine! I am thoroughly American through and through, but I also speak British. I mean, I generally catch their cultural references. Anyways, you made perfect sense.
And I actually agree with you. If you don't have to resort to forcing them, it's a healthier situation and I think makes for a better group.
But sometimes we put a system in place "just in case". Not all groups have the same maturity and not all GMs handle situations as deftly. That's not a dig at anybody, GMing is a learned and practiced skill. (so is playing, but its less demanding) We all get better as we do it and practice.
Pendagast's reasoning is quite... well, for a lack of a better word, reasonable. But so is your approach. You should definitely adopt the style you feel most comfortable with.
As for the Mantle, I guess there's no need to be so cryptic. Another way to describe the other benefits is to say, "If you're about Baba Yaga's business, it shouldn't be her magic and her defenses that you have to be worried about-it's the forces loyal to Elvanna you need to look out for." And to me it makes sense that such a thing exists, whether you implement a geas with it or not.
Hope this makes sense!
Just to weigh in...
First, Jim's doing yeoman's work here in defending/explaining the geas that's part of the Black Rider's mantle. But full disclosure: the inclusion of that idea was entirely mine. It's something I wrestled with and felt "compelled" to include. I proposed it to my developer (Rob) and his primary direction was to make sure the mantle provided something good (i.e., a significant bonus) and not simply a negative effect if they got off course. Thus, the +2 ability score bonus and the ability to be regarded as a minion of Baba Yaga as far as her wards and what-not are concerned. It was my hope that there'd be plenty of magic wards that would show up in her Dancing Hut, and the various other locations where it takes them. But I was relying on the other authors (and Rob) to make further use of it.
So, why the geas? Well, one thing that bugged me about the adventure setup in my outline for Snows of Summer was that the PCs go to investigate the strange weather in the Border Wood, they discover the winter portal, learn about this world-spanning doom fostered by the White Witch Elvanna, and then a handful of 2nd level heroes decide to head straight into Irrisen to do something about it? Why? Why them? If you were a 2nd level character and learned about something that dire and that huge, wouldn't you head back to Oppara with Lady Argentea and tell the king of Taldor what's going on so someone more capable than you could do something about it? Or, at the very least, wouldn't you seek out higher level heroes than yourself to deal with what seems like an insurmountable problem for 2nd level characters? At the very least, wouldn't you rally your countrymen to declare war on Irrisen rather than just leap through the winter portal and assume your four-man team will figure out how to find the Dancing Hut and free Baba Yaga along the way?
That felt implausible to me, and I wanted a better "in story" reason for why the PCs felt like they had to act right away...and keep on acting on Baba Yaga's behalf throughout the campaign...and why it had to be them. Not just to save Taldor, but to save the world. And what would make them think they could achieve such a heroic task? The Black Rider's mantle and its beneficial effect. But Baba Yaga doesn't just give away powerful witchcraft like that for free. Instead, the mantle should come with a price, including something that will keep them loyal to her. And also something that would push them to complete their assigned task. Thus, the geas seemed like the right amount of eerie witchcraft to apply to that situation. I thought it would make for a stronger bond between the PCs and the Old Crone over the course of the entire campaign. Something they can't just ignore. And something that would make them think about her everyday and reassess their committment on the road to Whitethrone and their travels with the Dancing Hut.
Is that railroading? Yes, it is. Most definitely. But is it useful railroading that supports the story arc of the Baba Yaga AP? Yes. Also, most definitely. Will there be GMs and players who resent being "forced" to act in this way? Sure. That's why there's a bit of text spent to explain the use of the geas is entirely optional for you. GMs will always know their players best. If your guys will balk at that kind of setup, alter it. But if your players are willing to invest and immerse themselves in the witchcraft that pervades the campaign...receive a boon for doing so...and endure a geas effect that never really harms them at all if they're pursuing the right course in the campaign...I think it would add a lot to how the AP plays.
In fact, instead of looking at the geas as a punishment for stepping off the track, think of it more like a compass. Baba Yaga's witchcraft is basically letting them know when they're on the wrong track, as well as the right track. And, it benefits and rewards them (with the ability score increase and free pass through her wards) when they're actively pursuing the task she needs them to perform. To me, that sounds exactly like something I'd expect Baba Yaga to do. And, if you can set aside the metagame concerns about the mechanical underpinnings of the geas and just evaluate it for the story possibilities, I think it adds a lot more than it detracts. In essence, it gives the GM (and Baba Yaga) a very plausible carrot and stick as a tool to make the campaign more fun.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
just chiming in (and I don't have the AP-Pdf around atm), while I can see Neill Spicer's reasoning,... won't this sort of limit the entire interaction with the camapign to the original cast of characters ?
I am asking, since a friend of mine is in, deep poodooh at the moment with his Legacy of Fire camapign and the inclusion of the "moldspeaker" subplot there (there is only one character from the initial group surviving, and she seems likely to leave the campaign..... which would effectively kill that entire roleplaying development ).
This does seem like a pretty premature way to end the camapign through... let's call it "character rotation" ?
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just chiming in (and I don't have the AP-Pdf around atm), while I can see Neil Spicer's reasoning,... won't this sort of limit the entire interaction with the camapign to the original cast of characters?
That's a good question...
If you don't care for that route, there's also the potential of saying the new PC which joins their group already received a similar mantle from the White Rider or the Red Rider. Elvanna chased down both of those minions as well, but it's possible that they too suffered a slow death. If they were able to buy time by fleeing even as Elvanna's witchcraft continued to poison them, they could have found other heroes (just like the Black Rider at the winter portal) and passed on their connection to Baba Yaga, as well.
Another two cents,
--Neil
just chiming in (and I don't have the AP-Pdf around atm), while I can see Neil Spicer's reasoning,... won't this sort of limit the entire interaction with the camapign to the original cast of characters?That's a good question...
** spoiler omitted **
Another two cents,
--Neil
Thanks for the cents and the interesting take. *grin*
Am in all likelihood not going to play or master the path, but since I have the friend facing the problem in LoF, it sort of rang a bell, and I do care about the reasoning.
Intrestingly enough, that "sharing of the mold (ahem geas)" was one of the things we contemplated for his conundrum, so....
yeah thanks for the cents^^
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just chiming in (and I don't have the AP-Pdf around atm), while I can see Neil Spicer's reasoning,... won't this sort of limit the entire interaction with the camapign to the original cast of characters?That's a good question...
** spoiler omitted **
Another two cents,
--Neil
Here's my additional take on this:
I agree with Neil 1) and 2) it's witch craft, dark magic, evil legendary witch, the players are getting accidentally caught up with her, yes they might want to stop what Elvanna is doing, but WHY help Baba Yaga? Well, Baba Yaga has seen to that.
You're not being railroaded by the writers in this case, you are being geased by Baba Yaga! It's different.
A) this spell/ability exists... at some point it HAS to be used SOMEWHERE, os i think it's cool it got used. B) IT totally goes with the theme, Was the Black Rider himself a "willing servant" of Baba Yaga? Probably not.
How do you deal with the moldspeaker problem? It passes, like a disease, if a new PC comes into the party, the player is "infected".
What if the PCs are totally wiped out? and they start new characters but want to keep playing the AP? Have pieces of the original parties gear come into possession of the new ones, some how, and then "infect them" maybe with a vision as well, of the original black rider and the same question and answer scenario, except it all happens in the characters minds as they sleep.
The way I intend on enhancing the black rider scene personally, is bequesting things to the party as well.
Maybe the barbarian receives the blackriders armor, the druid his horse, the magus his sword, the witch a ring and the sorceress a cloak?
When the final item is be quested, the rider disintegrates in a dying scream, a wind kicks up the dust that was once his body and it lands and settles on the PCs, momentarily nauseating them. the following few nights they have haunting visions and dreams a kin to scenes from LoTR that were meant to be the "cleansing of the shire" and instead became frodos visions from Galadriel.
something like that.
I might give them fatigued condition for the first few nights.
If they tried to throw the items away or get rid of them, the item would turn to dust and fly away in the air, only to rematerialize elsewhere, in their possessions , in a treasure trove, etc.
Hautning visions and fatigue would continue, eventually growing into the draw backs and negative side effects of the geas. Because thats what evil witches do!
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Just to weigh in...
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, Mr. Spicer! Not only was the post interesting by it's own merit, but it also gave me what I feel is a measure of insight into the kind of process that happens when an adventure is being designed and developed, and that's a whole other level of interesting.
About the actual content of what you said, I see two main arguments:
1) the mechanical one, about how it's impossible to believe that a bunch of powerless 2nd level characters would even consider hopping through a magic portal into an alien land on an epic quest where they'll come across some of the most infamous evils in Golarion. Frankly that's not even a little bit of a concern to me, since this kind of suspense of disbelief is just part of the game and how it's built - it's the idea of a "level system" where there's such an absurd power disperancy between high level chracters and low level characters.
just looking at the first two APs that come to my mind, let's see how the problem you mentioned is being hand waved away in other APs:
a) Shattered Star -
b) In Curse of the Crimson Throne,
In short, players have to suspend their disbelief when playing Pathfinder. They have to ignore the out of game knowledge that their characters will grow much stronger over rather short periods of time in the near future, and look at things from their characters' point of view - they are skilled adventureres who have just defeated a bunch of scary monsters from the land of Irrisen, and the fate of the world is on their shoulders. That's how it always was in Pathfinder and I think a single part of a single adventure is not enough to change that.
2)Baba Yaga is a mean spirited sort of gal, and her gifts *should* have a hidden sharp edge to them. Your point about this is intriguing and I'll have to think about it for a bit.
Anyho, thanks again for your two cents! ;)
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, Mr. Spicer!
No problem. It's a very valid discussion to have. And, there's not always enough room to explain the thinking that goes behind such a design decision in an adventure.
...it's impossible to believe that a bunch of powerless 2nd level characters would even consider hopping through a magic portal into an alien land on an epic quest where they'll come across some of the most infamous evils in Golarion. Frankly that's not even a little bit of a concern to me, since this kind of suspense of disbelief is just part of the game and how it's built...
I think if we view things through your personal lens and frame of reference, your point is entirely valid. Unfortunately, not everyone who plays the adventure will be as flexible in suspending their own disbelief. And, I wanted to give them an additional plausible reason for their characters to experience this whirlwind journey of witchcraft and multi-world-spanning mayhem.
Aside from that, the two examples you've cited feel a bit different to me than the setup for Reign of Winter. The events in Shattered Star and Curse of the Crimson Throne are much more localized...and the PCs have no reason at low-level to suspect the goals set for them might get them in over their head. Additionally, there's clearly time to grow into their skills and abilities to exert their own influence on how things play out. Alternatively, in Reign of Winter, you're told right up front that this is a world domination move that Elvanna is pursuing...and one with every chance of succeeding. And that's because she has armies at her command with superior capabilities to deal with the expanding wintry conditions in ways the rest of the world cannot. Thus, I thought it was a very reasonable possibility that PCs without any true compulsion to head into Irrisen just might derail things as they hurried back to Heldren and sought to warn everyone, including the nobles in Oppara who would be much better positioned to deal with this problem. I felt like the geas was an elegant, and appropriate, way of handling that possibility. And, I tried very hard to weave enough flavor around it and storytelling incentives to make it worth including despite the accusations of railroading I knew would eventually come.
Now, that said, I'd still stress that there's nothing requiring you to use the geas. If you've got players who are used to suspending their disbelief and who actively look for ways to play big darn heroes in your campaigns, you're good to go without it. And, the alternate methods you've proposed for defining their interaction with the Black Rider are useful and worth sharing here for others to consider. My only purpose for weighing in as much as I did here, was to widen the discussion...not so much to defend the choice I made (with Rob's approval)...but to give folks additional ideas for how that geas can enhance rather than detract from your enjoyment as you run the campaign for your players. There's a lot of fun that can be had with it. And it's not meant as a way for a GM to simply punish his or her players.
Just to weigh in...
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, Mr. Spicer! Not only was the post interesting by it's own merit, but it also gave me what I feel is a measure of insight into the kind of process that happens when an adventure is being designed and developed, and that's a whole other level of interesting.
About the actual content of what you said, I see two main arguments:
1) the mechanical one, about how it's impossible to believe that a bunch of powerless 2nd level characters would even consider hopping through a magic portal into an alien land on an epic quest where they'll come across some of the most infamous evils in Golarion. Frankly that's not even a little bit of a concern to me, since this kind of suspense of disbelief is just part of the game and how it's built - it's the idea of a "level system" where there's such an absurd power disperancy between high level chracters and low level characters.
just looking at the first two APs that come to my mind, let's see how the problem you mentioned is being hand waved away in other APs:a) Shattered Star -
b) In Curse of the Crimson Throne,
Please use spoiler tags when discussing other APs! Thanks :)
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Please use spoiler tags when discussing other APs! Thanks :)Just to weigh in...
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, Mr. Spicer! Not only was the post interesting by it's own merit, but it also gave me what I feel is a measure of insight into the kind of process that happens when an adventure is being designed and developed, and that's a whole other level of interesting.
About the actual content of what you said, I see two main arguments:
1) the mechanical one, about how it's impossible to believe that a bunch of powerless 2nd level characters would even consider hopping through a magic portal into an alien land on an epic quest where they'll come across some of the most infamous evils in Golarion. Frankly that's not even a little bit of a concern to me, since this kind of suspense of disbelief is just part of the game and how it's built - it's the idea of a "level system" where there's such an absurd power disperancy between high level chracters and low level characters.
just looking at the first two APs that come to my mind, let's see how the problem you mentioned is being hand waved away in other APs:a) Shattered Star -
b) In Curse of the Crimson Throne,
You are absloutley correct in asking for this, but for some reason the "edit" button disappeared from all of my posts... don't know what's up with that. I'll check back in here later today, see if the problem will be gone in a couple of hours.
You are absloutley correct in asking for this, but for some reason the "edit" button disappeared from all of my posts... don't know what's up with that. I'll check back in here later today, see if the problem will be gone in a couple of hours.Please use spoiler tags when discussing other APs! Thanks :)Just to weigh in...
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, Mr. Spicer! Not only was the post interesting by it's own merit, but it also gave me what I feel is a measure of insight into the kind of process that happens when an adventure is being designed and developed, and that's a whole other level of interesting.
About the actual content of what you said, I see two main arguments:
1) the mechanical one, about how it's impossible to believe that a bunch of powerless 2nd level characters would even consider hopping through a magic portal into an alien land on an epic quest where they'll come across some of the most infamous evils in Golarion. Frankly that's not even a little bit of a concern to me, since this kind of suspense of disbelief is just part of the game and how it's built - it's the idea of a "level system" where there's such an absurd power disperancy between high level chracters and low level characters.
just looking at the first two APs that come to my mind, let's see how the problem you mentioned is being hand waved away in other APs:a) Shattered Star -
b) In Curse of the Crimson Throne,
Alas, the ability to edit your own posts goes away about an hour after you make them, if I recall.
Alas, the ability to edit your own posts goes away about an hour after you make them, if I recall.
Sadly entirely correct.
@Lord Snow: It's your group of players, you will know best what kind of story hook they will rebel against or which ones they will be okay with.
In fact, pretty much the same plot hook was used by one GM who was running my group for one campaign between my own ones. Uber-Wizard geases everybody into being his minions. As a player, I was upset but we went along, because that's where the adventure was.
I'm used to "only you can save the world" notion, so I would quite possibly not have a problem with it. But I think it makes sense and works fine, so long as the GM doesn't use it as a hammer.
Also I would suggest that the GM might want to pause the game for a few minutes to explain how the geas will be used; i.e. to reassure his players that this is not to hurt them or force them to play a certain way.
A few lines of dialogue from the Black Rider can help a lot here too; have him explain he's bequeathing what remains of his power on the party, while also commanding that they rescue his (and now their) mistress. Let him signal that this also will allow them to bypass certain (deadly) wards (and be prepared to insert indications of them if the writers of subsequent adventures do not).
But basically, tailor the presentation to your party. If you don't think they need the geas, just ignore it. If you think they do, include it... but explain it in whatever way will best suit your group. If going out of character and metagame is what will help best, then do that.
