I actually have the same issue with the anime/manga Highschool of the Dead. It's actually a pretty good zombie apocalypse story, and I'm a huge fan of zombie stories, but the intro to one character is literally her taking a nap on her own breasts, which are big enough she can use them as a pillow, and you have another episode where all the girls fights in aprons, thongs, towels and such.
And yes, as a rule, pretty people sell more games. Frank from Dead Rising is something of an exception to that one. Sometimes, though, it really is just silly - I know enough larger ladies who mention some of the issues Lara would have, moving as she does. Of course, it does not help that I'm an archaeologist and therefore occasionally wanna choke Lara Croft anyway. So I might be being somewhat harsh with the Tomb Raider games.
Thank you JonGarrett,
Finally the truth is out. You make a lot of sense.
I had a dead beat dad too. The courts didn't even bother trying to force him to pay the child support he was assigned. When I turned 16 I looked him up with a computer and phone information service. It took like 5 to 10 minutes. While nobody in the whole court system could be bothered to even do that much work.
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i.e. you want special privilege.
No, just equality.
For instance. in the Demi Moore/Ashton Kutcher break-up, she has millions of dollars more than Kutcher, and is also much older than he is. So why in the world should he pay spousal support to her? Answer: He's male. She should be paying him, or since they are both very well off, neither should pay.
O.K. After looking this one up:
1) Of the thre articles i have read up, two cite some 'experts', agreeing that he probably won't have to pay2) Her private fortune is estimated around 160 million dollar, their common property around 290 million dollar - while that means that she has millions of dollars more, he has recently become the best paid TV actor so it is probably safe to consider them alomst equal on aa financial basis.
3) What the heck does their respective age have to do with this?
You should probably look at real data comparing how women and men end up after a divorce - they don't look much like what you chose to believe (they are hard to link to, but look up court statistics and social statistics).
2) Her private fortune is estimated around 160 million dollar, their common property around 290 million dollar - while that means that she has millions of dollars more, he has recently become the best paid TV actor so it is probably safe to consider them alomst equal on aa financial basis.
This is extremely important. How much money you had BEFORE you got married matters virtually nothing in a divorce, it's everything you earn WHILE married that matters.
So I don't know who of Moore and Kutcher has more individual property, but I do know which one of them has the lead role on a popular network sitcom right now.
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On the original topic, I just wish there were more scantily clad men. Most women put up with scantily clad women -- unless they are convinced there's some sort of political message to it. But add scantily clad men and suddenly all this male homophobia pops up, men act like it's physically repulsive to see an attractive specimen of their own sex.
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[silly] But I like "sexualized scantily clad heroes" in my gaming entertainment! [/silly]
In all seriousness, yes, it's a lot more difficult to find beefcake than cheesecake out there. By far.
Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I prefer the people I might be interested in to be mainly clothed and articulate. 'Course, I'd also prefer to reserve RL violence for times of self defense too, but find myself playing individuals who seek out combat in some way. What's sexy to one group (scantily clad females in sexualized poses) might not be another group's definition of sexy (male firefighters with exposed chests).
I'm looking forward to the day when all people, regardless of their genetic make up, have mostly equal treatment. But then again, I like the idea of meritocracy on some level...
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On the original topic, I just wish there were more scantily clad men. Most women put up with scantily clad women -- unless they are convinced there's some sort of political message to it. But add scantily clad men and suddenly all this male homophobia pops up, men act like it's physically repulsive to see an attractive specimen of their own sex.
The list of muscle-bound handsome men that show it off in media is at least as long as the women. From Conan and John Carter to Superman (skin-tight costume) to WWE Wrestling to shirtless action movie heroes and too many other things to list, it's all over the place. If this "male homophobia" is as rampant as you say, then why do so many men watch WWE, for example, where muscle-bound guys in little shorts grapple each other?
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On the original topic, I just wish there were more scantily clad men. Most women put up with scantily clad women -- unless they are convinced there's some sort of political message to it. But add scantily clad men and suddenly all this male homophobia pops up, men act like it's physically repulsive to see an attractive specimen of their own sex.The list of muscle-bound handsome men that show it off in media is at least as long as the women. From Conan and John Carter to Superman (skin-tight costume) to WWE Wrestling to shirtless action movie heroes and too many other things to list, it's all over the place. If this "male homophobia" is as rampant as you say, then why do so many men watch WWE, for example, where muscle-bound guys in little shorts grapple each other?
Nope, it's a very real thing and was illustrated perfectly on these very boards back when Paizo featured an idealized mostly naked dude on a Dragon issue for a Greek gods article. Some guys complained that they didn't want to be seen picking it up because they'd be "mistaken for gay".
Them double standards.
Edit-This one. Not actually Greek god specific
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I didn't say it doesn't exist at all... it does. But it's not nearly as rampant as some make it out to be. A few people said something out of how many thousands that bought the issue? Was there any noticeable sales drop for the issue? Male icons from wrestling to movies to comics and video games are often showing off their (unnaturally muscular) bodies.
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I actually have the same issue with the anime/manga Highschool of the Dead.
I loveeee this series but yeah, it's super duper problematic and way over the top with the fanservice. The artist is a hentai (i.e. porn) artist by trade though, so it's not that surprising.
--
Also the problem with skimpily clad men vs. women is basically that men are almost always still the "heroes" with the ability to impact their environment, power/heroic fantasy fulfilment, etc. Whereas women are reduced to objects of lust more than anything else. You'll never see guys in the poses women get put in most of the time.
And of course the latent homophobia. That's an issue as well.
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Some guys complained that they didn't want to be seen picking it up because they'd be "mistaken for gay".
Hadn't seen that, but the story is pretty funny :)
Wow those guys must have some curious sexual identity issues, insecure much?
Ok, I am honestly not getting this. What is the end result? For all female characters to be big buff tuff ruff and tumble characters like bane or the thing? One of my favorite female characters is Ripley from aliens. She isn't an idealized female beauty but I still find her sexually attractive.. Is that wrong of me to have a sexuality as a man?
In one of the fall out games there is a female brotherhood of steel character dressed in monk robes.. Is this the end result of all of this white knighting?
A little story before I close.
I once made reference to my friend and described him as a black man. The person I was talking to got offended and told me to call him African American.
I asked him what was wrong with being black.
So
What is wrong with being a sexy woman?
A lot of women love looking and feeling sexy. From a young age with their Barbie dolls or in high school with their five hundred plus iphone self shots of different revealing outfits on their Facebook pages to the thousands of dollars of cosmetics and cosmetic surgeries they get when they are older.
I ask what is wrong with these women?
I ask what is wrong with the men who enjoy them?
I ask what do you want from all of this?
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I wasn't so find of Ripley (sooooo whiny) I preferred the fiery strength and presence of PTE Vasquez, or the cool and collected confidence of CPL Ferro , I also like Xena.
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Not so sexy girl ends up with sexy guy?
Tremors. :P (she wasn't ugly or anything, but not a classic beauty either.)
How about DragonSlayer? I mean she passed as a man (I'm not sure how, I was confused the first time because I recognized her as a woman at the beginning).
Pirates of the Caribbean? LOL.
Any Sandra Bullock movie. :D
I'll try to think of some more. There was some more that I had thought of yesterday, but have forgotten.
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It was asked a bit earlier what the "point" to all this is. This is the original question posed:
Still, I want to ask What are they “men” that so violently threatened Anita Sarkeesian so violently afraid of? Perhaps I am just too naive, but I do not understand.
The whole thread's derailed a bit, but I do believe the point was to answer that question.
I don't think those 'people' are violently afraid of much at all (from Sarkeesian) I just think they are angry little people.
Reckon any given Justin Bieber video up on Youtube has as many (if not more) haterade fuelled posts than Sarkeesian ever got, and no one is questioning the deep gender-politics of that one or filming a documentary about it.
I reckon if you posted a 30 second video of a fly crawling up a wall you'd still pull a healthy number of people cursing you out and making horrid comments... thats not sexism, that's the Internet Douchebag Theory alive and well.
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I ask what is wrong with these women?
I ask what is wrong with the men who enjoy them?
I ask what do you want from all of this?
Nothing.
Nothing is individually wrong with sexy women (or sexy men!) or with the enjoyment thereof. I quite enjoy sexy women (and men, although to a lesser extent). I totally empathise with the heterosexual male enjoyment of cheesecake and whatnot.
What IS wrong is the lack of diversity. The fact that it's incredibly difficult to find examples of women that are NOT sexualised and made into objects of desire, or are actually given agency equivalent to their male counterparts. This is a very bad thing.
What I want is more examples of awesome female protagonists. Of women that aren't sexualised. Of games where the traditional tropes are turned on their heads.
This isn't a zero sum game, least of all for the video gaming market. The current representations of men and women can be maintained WHILE ALSO providing for alternatives. If the market continues to favour sexy submissive objectification of women, that's unfortunate (in my eyes), but I'll at least have alternative options to look at.
But as it stands, there is little to no choice.
I would like to thank Samurai. I needed a reason to stop diddling around reading Paizo message boards when I should be working. I now have one. This is one of the most disturbing threads I've ever read. How anyone can take a deep, honest look at our society and think women have it better than men is... Well, these boards have rules, and I'm going to abide by them.
But I implore any man (or woman - plenty of women have fallen for the "feminism is bad" slander) who knee-jerks a response to these sorts of things to play devil's advocate for a few days and really try to investigate the other side's point of view. Not halfway, just-to-make-my-point, but truly with an open mind. I know I'm glad I did - it changed the way I saw the world, and myself. It wasn't pleasant admitting I and the things I enjoyed are flawed. But it was a good first step, and I'm better for it.
Edit: and Margatroid has it exactly right. Male characters in the media demonstrate a range of types. Sometimes it feels like one of those types is "female," and that's all women get. Like Smurfette, or Black Widow, or Wonder Woman. You've got the smart one, the noble one, the tormented one, and the female one. And why can ugly guys get the girl if they're smart or funny or nice deep down, but the same courtesy isn't applied to female characters? Our depictions of women in media are most problematic when we consider how relatively limited they are in the aggregate.
Second edit: how did I end up with Papa Smurf as an avatar?
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"Little to no choice"? C'mon, there are lots of other representations. 20 or 30 years ago there weren't, but today there are a ton of them.
Anita was upset by a game decades ago where the original female hero was replaced by Starfox. So let's look at a case in reverse. The movie Salt was originally written to star Tom Cruise. When Cruise left, they changed Edwin to Evelyn and gave the part to Angelina Jolie. read more here This kind of thing happens more frequently than some know.
When do truly ugly men actually get girls? Truly Quasimodo-ish guys? Sorry, Ducky doesn't end up with Andie, she goes off with Blane. And that is how audiences want it.
I would like to thank Samurai. I needed a reason to stop diddling around reading Paizo message boards when I should be working. I now have one. This is one of the most disturbing threads I've ever read. How anyone can take a deep, honest look at our society and think women have it better than men is... Well, these boards have rules, and I'm going to abide by them.
But I implore any man (or woman - plenty of women have fallen for the "feminism is bad" slander) who knee-jerks a response to these sorts of things to play devil's advocate for a few days and really try to investigate the other side's point of view. Not halfway, just-to-make-my-point, but truly with an open mind. I know I'm glad I did - it changed the way I saw the world, and myself. It wasn't pleasant admitting I and the things I enjoyed are flawed. But it was a good first step, and I'm better for it.
Edit: and Margatroid has it exactly right. Male characters in the media demonstrate a range of types. Sometimes it feels like one of those types is "female," and that's all women get. Like Smurfette, or Black Widow, or Wonder Woman. You've got the smart one, the noble one, the tormented one, and the female one. And why can ugly guys get the girl if they're smart or funny or nice deep down, but the same courtesy isn't applied to female characters? Our depictions of women in media are most problematic when we consider how relatively limited they are in the aggregate.
Second edit: how did I end up with Papa Smurf as an avatar?
If you have the word smurf (or smurfette, apparently) in your post, your avatar gets smurfed.
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When do truly ugly men actually get girls? Truly Quasimodo-ish guys? Sorry, Ducky doesn't end up with Andie, she goes off with Blane. And that is how audiences want it.
Right, only Judd Apatow movies seem to allow ugly stoners to end up with the girls.
On the other hand, there are tons of stories of women who were overlooked at first that later end up with the guy. Cinderella is a famous example. There are tons of others too, typically involving a make-over scene where the "ugly" girl is given better clothes, hairdo, make-up, etc.
I ask what is wrong with these women?
I ask what is wrong with the men who enjoy them?
I ask what do you want from all of this?
Nothing.
Nothing is individually wrong with sexy women (or sexy men!) or with the enjoyment thereof. I quite enjoy sexy women (and men, although to a lesser extent). I totally empathise with the heterosexual male enjoyment of cheesecake and whatnot.
What IS wrong is the lack of diversity. The fact that it's incredibly difficult to find examples of women that are NOT sexualised and made into objects of desire, or are actually given agency equivalent to their male counterparts. This is a very bad thing.
What I want is more examples of awesome female protagonists. Of women that aren't sexualised. Of games where the traditional tropes are turned on their heads.
This isn't a zero sum game, least of all for the video gaming market. The current representations of men and women can be maintained WHILE ALSO providing for alternatives. If the market continues to favour sexy submissive objectification of women, that's unfortunate (in my eyes), but I'll at least have alternative options to look at.
But as it stands, there is little to no choice.
"Incredibly difficult"
https://www.google.com/search?q=paizo+females&hl=en&client=safari&a mp;source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5VE9UaDbJorc8wSyqYHoBA&ved= 0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=768&bih=928#biv=i%7C43%3Bd%7CSl6lPmN1htELxM%3AI googled Paizo females. The page had numerous examples of women who looked like they could kick ass, and were not showing cleavage.
In my opinion, Paizo is all about diversity but if you start to turn the dial up on the oven it will burn the food and that's no good either.
Women are sexy.
Sorry.
It's a fact.
:p
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Samurai, please name some video games that have a female protagonist.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
- Final Fantasy 13 (and Final Fantasy X-2)
- Mirror's Edge
- Beyond Good and Evil
- Assassin's Creed 3: Liberation
Now think of the numerous games that have a male protagonist only.
I'd like to exclude games that give you a choice on protagonist gender, because in 99% of cases these games do not differ whatsoever no matter your selection*... which is fine, and good, but there are still an ENORMOUS amount of games that have a male protagonist, but very few that have a female protagonist.
* Minus cosmetic aspects - which can still be problematic (compare male armor vs. female armor in fantasy games for example) - and things such as ability (or inability) to get into a relationship with an NPC based on sexual preference etc...
I ask what is wrong with these women?
I ask what is wrong with the men who enjoy them?
I ask what do you want from all of this?
Nothing.
Nothing is individually wrong with sexy women (or sexy men!) or with the enjoyment thereof. I quite enjoy sexy women (and men, although to a lesser extent). I totally empathise with the heterosexual male enjoyment of cheesecake and whatnot.
What IS wrong is the lack of diversity. The fact that it's incredibly difficult to find examples of women that are NOT sexualised and made into objects of desire, or are actually given agency equivalent to their male counterparts. This is a very bad thing.
What I want is more examples of awesome female protagonists. Of women that aren't sexualised. Of games where the traditional tropes are turned on their heads.
This isn't a zero sum game, least of all for the video gaming market. The current representations of men and women can be maintained WHILE ALSO providing for alternatives. If the market continues to favour sexy submissive objectification of women, that's unfortunate (in my eyes), but I'll at least have alternative options to look at.
But as it stands, there is little to no choice.
"Incredibly difficult"
https://www.google.com/search?q=paizo+females&hl=en&client=safari&a mp;source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5VE9UaDbJorc8wSyqYHoBA&ved= 0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=768&bih=928#biv=i%7C43%3Bd%7CSl6lPmN1htELxM%3AI googled Paizo females. The page had numerous examples of women who looked like they could kick ass, and were not showing cleavage.
In my opinion, Paizo is all about diversity but if you start to turn the dial up on the oven it will burn the food and that's no good either.
Women are sexy.
Sorry.
It's a fact.
:p
I don't find women sexy at all, therefore you are wrong and should stop posting... or I don't know... STOP SPEAKING FOR EVERYBODY.
Here's a counter challenge to your challenge:
Go find me a video game or a mainstream action movie where the male protagonist doesn't have the depth of a postage stamp and the brains/emotional range to match :p
The average male protagonists are every bit as shallow and cliche as the female ones, and set a pretty poor standard for role models.
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Samurai, please name some video games that have a female protagonist.
I can think of the following off the top of my head:
- Final Fantasy 13 (and Final Fantasy X-2)
- Mirror's Edge
- Beyond Good and Evil
- Assassin's Creed 3: LiberationNow think of the numerous games that have a male protagonist only.
I'd like to exclude games that give you a choice on protagonist gender, because in 99% of cases these games do not differ whatsoever no matter your selection... which is fine, and good, but there are still an ENORMOUS amount of games that have a male protagonist, but very few that have a female protagonist.
I don't own a console, so I can't speak to those games very well. I play exclusively on the computer, and typically either MMOs like Guild Wars 2 (where female characters are an option), RPGs like Skyrim and Dragon's Age (where females are an option and the story does change a little depending upon gender chosen), or RTS/turn-based strategy games where there is no real avatar of the player. I suppose you could say Call of Duty is only a male avatar, but it's first person, all you typically see is a pair of hands holding a gun. I played Torchlight, there is a female option there. I played Borderlands, there's a female option there. Super Monday Night Combat has female options. Civ 5 has female rulers from history for many of the civs. Nearly every game I own has female options if the player has an avatar in the game world...
Edit to add: If both the male and female options do play similar or the same, what's wrong with that? That should be something to celebrate, that the women kick exactly as much butt as the men. If it was "male avatar = fight your way through, female avatar = talk/seduce your way through, that would be offensive. Why would you want significantly different gameplay with a female avatar?
The Luge, this conversation isn't about Paizo in particular. Paizo is INCREDIBLY progressive on this subject in comparison to the rest of the hobby industry (and related industries such as comic books and video games).
Be that as it may, yes.. I am for variety. Aliens wouldn't have interested it me like it had if ripely had been just another cut and paste big chested supermodel who giggled her way to the lava pit.
Freddy Mercury and Rob Halford are interesting to me because of their great singing voices and their lifestyle.
The wizard of oz would have come off to me as a comedy instead of some type of fantasy adventure if the main character had been an ugly fat old woman instead of a cute brunette.
Every detail adds flavor.
Flavor is good.
Just remember that adding flavor and taking other favors out isn't adding flavor..
So the sexy women stay. The serious hard nosed female veterans can come too! ;)
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Shifty,
I'm not trying to claim that male depictions in video games are perfect. (I can't speak for movies because I don't have much of an interest in them). Of course not.
The video game industry is very much a burgeoning artform that is undeveloped... outside of things like RPGs where it comes with the territory, there's a lot of problems with characterisation, storylines, and writing on the whole. It definitely needs improvement.
But at least two-dimensional action heroes have impact and agency. Something that a lot of women in various media do not.
In any case, here are some non-2D male protagonists off the top of my head:
* Harry Mason from Silent Hill,
* Pretty much every protagonist from the Final Fantasy series (although 'brains/emotional range' are sometimes in question, *cough*, Squall...),
* Heavy Rain,
* Ico,
* Bioshock,
* Fallout,
* Spec Ops: The Line,
* Honestly I could name like a trillion and one JRPGs
... etc.
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Edit to add: If both the male and female options do play similar or the same, what's wrong with that? That should be something to celebrate, that the women kick exactly as much butt as the men. If it was "male avatar = fight your way through, female avatar = talk/seduce your way through, that would be offensive. Why would you want significantly different gameplay with a female avatar?
I don't want it...? I think it's good that we can pick in many games where it suits. It really sucked back when I first started playing games and my avatar would be a boy but named a girl name...
But there are also many cases (especially in story driven games) where the protagonist is not customisable for whatever reason... and very few of those have a female lead.
I'd love to see a FPS with a female lead. That'd throw things for a loop!
funny you mention JRPG's, because when thinking of good female protagonists I started running them in my head and realised that most came from asian 'kung-fu' films... whilst the same movie houses no doubt produce some of the worst possible gender stereotypes, they sure have a lot of good ones.
And no, Fallout featured lots of bad and nasty people prone to horrible and nasty activity, that's why I liked it.
I think the problem is that both men AND women are sort of trapped with unhelpful media portrayals of their gender aimed to please the lowest common denominator - whilst we would both like to see our respective changes, I am not sure the change will come any time soon because neither of us are REALLY their target market.
They just want girls to buy the SIMS, whilst the guys buy YETANOTHERACTIONGUY.
/sad panda.
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Sigh, while I don't really appreciate the overt sexual nature of some video games, I don't think they are any worse than your typical TV show and are generally far less ridiculous than your typical female in a comic book.
But I find the knee-jerk male-bashing and stereotyping them (us) as farting, belching neanderthals who sit around drooling over the poor downtrodden opposite gender at least as offensive. If not more so because there aren't many people who make or play a hot chick in a chain mail bikini basking in the glow of their supposed superior morality because they adhere to all the approved politically correct gender stereotypes. In public anyway.
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Hey! Don't diss the Sims! I love that game. :P
Media moguls and AAA gaming companies don't want to change because they THINK they know what sells best. In reality demographics and perceptions are shifting rapidly and they can't keep peddling the same tripe.
I think there's a big change coming from indie games and the increasing ease of getting a market for them (Steam, the various console app stores, iPhone/Android, etc).
I just hope that the AAA industry doesn't become like Hollywood, throwing out artistically terrible (but financially successful) mindless action flick time after time... or in the case of video games, making Halo: 24 and Call of Duty: 40 and Ultra New Super Mario Brothers World RPG 5 and so forth... and leave the actual change to the smaller, less influential indie companies.
Edit to add: If both the male and female options do play similar or the same, what's wrong with that? That should be something to celebrate, that the women kick exactly as much butt as the men. If it was "male avatar = fight your way through, female avatar = talk/seduce your way through, that would be offensive. Why would you want significantly different gameplay with a female avatar?I don't want it...? I think it's good that we can pick in many games where it suits. It really sucked back when I first started playing games and my avatar would be a boy but named a girl name...
But there are also many cases (especially in story driven games) where the protagonist is not customisable for whatever reason... and very few of those have a female lead.
I'd love to see a FPS with a female lead. That'd throw things for a loop!
Perfect dark. One of my favorite n64 games.