What are some potential abuses that could arise from the use of Charisma instead of Constitution for determinng Hit Points?
I'm not too concerned about casters like bards or sorcs gaining the extra health, but Paladins seem like they could be extremely potent if they just pump their Charisma. What other potential problems or abuses could arise from this swap?
Context: I've had a homebrew semi-undead race (Spirits of the dead manifested into physical bodies with ghost-like limbs) as part of my setting for a while, but I'm reworking them to make them a proper player race. That's where this question comes from.
Make it cost a Feat and it should be okay, so long as it doesn't affect Fortitude saves? That would be my inclination.
It's just health. They still have a constitution score to determine their fort saves.
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Cha for HP just doesn't make sense. Allow me to present two different options:
1) dashing and daring- add cha to dex to determine your AC. This added bonus does not count against max dex bonus from armor, but is only usable against creature that can be affected by mind effecting spells.
2) con for casting- spontaneous casters use con instead of cha. The caster takes non leathal dmg = to spell lvl + meta magic adjustments every time he casts a spell.
Cha for HP just doesn't make sense. Allow me to present two different options:
1) dashing and daring- add cha to dex to determine your AC. This added bonus does not count against max dex bonus from armor, but is only usable against creature that can be affected by mind effecting spells.
2) con for casting- spontaneous casters use con instead of cha. The caster takes non leathal dmg = to spell lvl + meta magic adjustments every time he casts a spell.
You're missing the bit about them being undead(ish). Undead in Pathfinder do already use Charisma for hp and saves. Their resilience is based on the power of their miasma, not their bodies, which are decayed.
If it's going to be used for hp, they need to have no Con score and use Cha for saves as well. It just doesn't make sense for them to have a Con score and use it for one thing and not the other.
You can balance this by giving them weaknesses that hurt bards and other Cha spellcasters if you think it's an issue (though I don't think it will be as long as they dont have too many other racial abilities).
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How high could you buy a single stat if you're free to dump the other five? Let's say 20-point-buy, all five others dumped down to 5.
Paladins would probably be the least broken, as they still need Strength for melee. Bards need reasonable STR and/or DEX, their choice.
Sorcerers, meanwhile, are already expected to avoid melee and live or die by their spells. Plus, the sorcer/wizard spell list is full of save-or-suck spells even at level 1. A level 1 sorcerer who is free to TRULY minmax his Charisma would have a saving throw DC unheard of at level 1 and enough bonus spells that he'd barely even need a backup weapon.
The problem is even worse for Oracles, who would have the cleric's save-or-suck spells to work with, plus the Cure line to keep themselves alive when their HP is no longer enough of a buffer.
How high could you buy a single stat if you're free to dump the other five? Let's say 20-point-buy, all five others dumped down to 5.
Paladins would probably be the least broken, as they still need Strength for melee. Bards need reasonable STR and/or DEX, their choice.
Sorcerers, meanwhile, are already expected to avoid melee and live or die by their spells. Plus, the sorcer/wizard spell list is full of save-or-suck spells even at level 1. A level 1 sorcerer who is free to TRULY minmax his Charisma would have a saving throw DC unheard of at level 1 and enough bonus spells that he'd barely even need a backup weapon.
The problem is even worse for Oracles, who would have the cleric's save-or-suck spells to work with, plus the Cure line to keep themselves alive when their HP is no longer enough of a buffer.
I don't really see where you are headed with this. Regardless of how many points a character has available at creation, you can never buy a stat higher than 18 before racial adjustments, meaning a stat of 20 at level one is the maximum 95% of the time. People already do that, so it isn't really breaking the game. All it would do for Cha casters is let them leave Con at 10 or dump it if they are feeling brave about Fort Saves.
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).EDIT: and Byrd deleted his post as I was writing this one.
Because there was so much wrong with my post, I thought that I would pretend it never happened.
If a ghost possesses a living host, then they would use the hosts body to determine HP and Fort saves based on the hosts con mod but the ghosts base saves. Hosts physical stats, ghosts mental stats... Kinda like a synthesis summoner.
I've been fond of the idea of hit points being based on Charisma or Constitution, whichever is higher. Constitution = resilience, Charisma = morale. The LotR MMO used morale for health.
Always thought will was morale while cha was personality.
It's just health. They still have a constitution score to determine their fort saves.
Why? Might as well have Charisma apply to Fort, as well as HP, if it is a measure of their unnatural life force.
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If the players are using an undead race. And therefore has no Con and uses Cha instead of fort saves and HP, then I would suggest just simply lowering the pointbuy (assuming you are using pointbuy to determine stats.)
Starting with 15 instead of 20 could easily help prevent the characters from abusing their characters.
If you want to go further you can... drop the hitdice of classes that uses cha as a main stat, like Sorcerers or Oracles down 1. A d6 to d4s, d8s to d6s.
And since they are all undead, just ban the Paladin to prevent abuse.
Charisma is like mental strength: it's you imposing your willpower over other creature's wills. Non-magically, this is simply debating, delivering a speech, or intimidating someone with a glare. Magically, it's forcing otherworldy powers to do your bidding by sheer force of will.
Charisma = Mental Strength
Intelligence = Mental Dexterity
Wisdom = Mental Constitution
Undead Paladin could actually be really interesting, it would be a shame to ban it when it presents to many interesting role-playing opportunities (trying to convince innocents that's he's really there to help, not harvest their souls, being tolerant with good heroes looking to smite him, etc).
I agree with Secane on lowering the point-buy. Depending on how much you trust your players, I would say "Just don't break the game, guys", and let them have at it with a level lower of point-buy (25 becomes 20, 20 becomes 15, 15 becomes 10). That, combined with the benefits of being Undead should balance things out in the long run.