Gunslinger: Pistolero + Grim Outlaw

[Hulk'Thar]

I picked up the Class Acts pdf for Gunslingers and I really like the Grim Outlaw archetype, however, I want to be certain it can be combined with the Pistolero archetype. I see two possible conflicts: 1)Pistolero changes the level you get Deadeye and Grim Outlaw replaces it (I don't think this would create a problem, but I wasn't sure) 2) Grim Outlaw replaces Gun Training 1-4 (As far as I know Pistolero doesn't remove those abilities, however, I have seen discussions regarding the redundancy and didn't know if an errata had been put out that changed the Pistolero archetype to now replace them).

Is anyone aware if this combo is legal or has anyone played this combo in Society play?

[Michael Sayre]

It is not a legal combo. You cannot have two archetypes that replace or alter the same abilities.
Deadeye is replaced and/or altered by both archetypes. Pistolero replaces Gun training with their specialized ability that applies to all one-handed firearms, and Grim Outlaw replaces it as well.

You have at least two conflicts between these archetypes preventing them from working together.

[Hulk'Thar]

I didn't know about the altered part, good to know. Where does it say that Pistolero replaces Gun Training? Both Hero Lab and d20pfsrd d20pfsrd indicate that Gun Training is not replaced.

Edit:

I checked into the altered clause you mentioned:

Quote:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

Pistolero doesn't alter it as another class feature, it is the same class feature at a different level, but I guess that is just wishful reading.

[Michael Sayre]

Instead of standard Gun Training 1,2,3, and 4, Pistolero's get:

"Pistol Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm."

[Hulk'Thar]

Where does it say Pistol Training Replaces that? The other three deeds that are added explicitly state what it is they are altering. Pistol Training makes not such statement.

[Michael Sayre]

Hulk'Thar wrote:

Where does it say Pistol Training Replaces that? The other three deeds that are added explicitly state what it is they are altering. Pistol Training makes not such statement.

This would be a typo left out in a book that is absolutely notorious for being the most poorly edited piece of material Paizo has ever released. I'm not sure if it ever made it to FAQ, but there was a dev post on the subject if you dig around a bit. The abilities would be worthless if you had both anyways since you can't stack the same stat twice, and you're still nixed on the combo you're looking for thanks to the Deadeye issue.

[Hulk'Thar]

I have been digging, the funny this is Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger was hot stuff a while back and Mysterious Stranger replaces Gun Training.

[Michael Sayre]

Hulk'Thar wrote:

I have been digging, the funny this is Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger was hot stuff a while back and Mysterious Stranger replaces Gun Training.

Because everyone was trying to use the same loophole. You'll notice that that's died down quite a bit since the last dev clarification hit.

[Hulk'Thar]

That wasn't the loop hole (it has to do with bonus damage). Also, this clarification you speak of is nowhere to be found.

At this point it is:

Rules As Written, Pistolero does not replace Gun Training
Rules As Ssalarn Wants them to be, Pistolero does replace Gun Training

[Michael Sayre]

I'll dig and see if I can find it for you. The RAI is for Pistol Training to replace Gun Training. It is fairly obvious just by looking. It doesn't stack with Gun Training, and Gun Training is worthless side-by-side with it since they don't stack.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Multiple Developers have weighed in on it. If you actually search you can find at least 15. Though 10 of those are for PFS.

[Hulk'Thar]

Just because someone thinks an interpretation is fairly obvious doesn't mean it is right. I hate to be nit picky but I want to rely on facts and RAW not interpretations that might be right or should be right. They are worthless if the only archetype you play is a Pistolero, however, the modification of that ability affects what archetypes you can legally use with Pistolero, so it actually has "value" by being there.

[Hulk'Thar]

I have searched and can't find these Dev comments. Now google just keeps sending me to this page >.>

[Michael Sayre]

Here's Mike Brock the Campaign Coordinator for Pathfinder Society weighing in. I'll kee p looking for more as well.

[Hulk'Thar]

The most relevant source I found is another thread that is current which means continuing to discuss this in this thread is silly Mysterious Stranger / Pistolero legality

[Azaelas Fayth]

Use the search feature on this site and make sure it is on the Messageboards tab.

And what do you mean Worthless if Pistolero is the only Archetype?

Pistolero is considered one of the most powerful Archetypes there is. Mainly because most campaigns tend to be in tight spaces making the Shorter Range less of a hindrance.

[Hulk'Thar]

You misread my comment, that is not what I said.

[Drakkiel]

@Ssalarn: YOU BEAT ME TO IT :(...i hate when my phone gets so slow...couldn't find it fast enough lol

[Azaelas Fayth]

I was asking what you were meaning.

[Hulk'Thar]

You said "Pistolero is considered one of the most powerful Archetypes there is. Mainly because most campaigns tend to be in tight spaces making the Shorter Range less of a hindrance."

Implying that I said Pistolero was worthless. I said that having gun training as a Pistolero is not necessarily worthless because it would allow you to pick up another archetype.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Hulk'Thar wrote:

They are worthless if the only archetype you play is a Pistolero, however, the modification of that ability affects what archetypes you can legally use with Pistolero, so it actually has "value" by being there.

I'm sure you can see the problem.

[Hulk'Thar]

I was referring to the previous poster Ssalarn stating gun training was worthless. If you follow the thread my comment makes sense, if you quote me out of context or rush to comment it doesn't.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I seen his post. I also know they wouldn't be worthless if they still were there. Pistol Training only works on 1H Firearms. This means you could use Gun Training to be able to wield Muskets and other 2H Firearms meaning you would get 4 2H Firearms with training and all 1H Firearms. That seems pretty Powerful.

[Hulk'Thar]

But your abilities only work with one handers. If you are a pistolero and did what you suggest you would be mis-firing more often and losing Up Close and Deadly damage and the ability to use Twin Shot Knockdown. Doing as you suggest is a terribly weak idea.

Edit: and dexterity bonus to damage...

[Azaelas Fayth]

Ok you get the DEX+X from the Pistol Training. Then you would get the normal benefit from Gun Training. This means you can still get fairly effective use out of a Musket for Longer Ranged shots.

Like I said: If you still got Gun Training (they still were there).

This means I could get Gun Training(Musket, Double Barrel Musket, Blunderbuss, Double Hackbut) alongside all 1H Firearms.

This means with all 1H Firearm, Muskets, Double Barrel Muskets, Blunderbusses, & Double Hackbuts you would get DEX to damage and with 1H Firearms you would gain bonus damage from Pistol Training.

[Hulk'Thar]

along with the ability to use up close and deadly, twin shot knockdown and reduced misfire chance (0 misfire after 13th level). A pistolero would never use a 2H firearm.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Unless they didn't want to waste ammo on a Shot with Range Penalties.

[Hulk'Thar]

As a melee pistolero after level 3, or 4 depending on if you take toughness at level 1, you have no AoO for shooting in melee (Deft Shootist Dead) and there is not -4 to hit when shooting "in melee" only when shooting "into a melee". Also, a ranged shot with a -4 against touch is probably better than a melee attack against AC when bosses are concerned. For example, Skeletal Champion (CR-2) has a 21 AC and a 12 touch which makes a -4 look pretty good.

[Azaelas Fayth]

But what of that 150 foot shot you might need to make?

[Hulk'Thar]

Hehe, that is why my AP group has a musket master...

[Azaelas Fayth]

Not all have such a load out though.

[Hulk'Thar]

Do you honestly find yourself needing to take 150' shot often enough that as a melee class you would invest into a fairly expensive weapon? I honestly can only remember a single time when a shot like that was even possible and useful. The gold required to invest in a weapon to do what you are suggesting would be better spent on something else. If a Pistolero wants to waste resources for such a rare contingency then by all means.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Crafting a musket would be 2000 GP. Not that bad if running a Standard WBL game.

[blackbloodtroll]

Where is this "Grim Outlaw archetype"?

Is this 3rd party?

[Azaelas Fayth]

It is 3PP. Class Acts Line.

Which means no. The combo isn't legal regardless. As it involves a 3PP Product.