| Nep |
So, I'm thinking of creating my own campaign and have been pondering the idea that (for some reason irrelevant to the discussion) the astral plane would be unreachable. Anything relying on travel or communication through it would effectively stop working. How would this manifest in Golarion?
A few thoughts from what I've read so far:
1. Spells like teleport rely on a quick stop in the astral plane. They would cease to work.
2. Any travel or contact with the outer planes would be impossible. The gods would not be reachable and presumably divine casters could not cast or prepare any spells (at least not prepare).
3. Souls could not travel to the afterlife, so intelligent ethereal undead would become much more common. Spells like resurrection would presumably be easier to perform.
| Mortuum |
This sounds cool. Unless everybody's going to become an undead, I'm not sure where the dead who don't would end up. Probably on the Ethereal or Shadow plane?
If so, what type are these souls?
There might be major problems caused by a lack of access to the inner planes. Do things burn with no plane of fire? Can you get new life or undeath without the energy planes?
I wouldn't recommend shutting everything down right away unless this is for a temporary scenario, but having everything slowly run out could make a great campaign-level threat if you want the PCs to restore the old order of things.
It's worth considering whether druid and spells come from other planes or not. I don't know if Golarion has a ruling on that, but I always saw them as being the magic of the prime material.
Next on the list is new souls. Where do they come from? If they're sourced in the inner or outer planes, new life might be born dead, undead, or unable to wake. Worth considering, I think.
You might want to read up on Dark Sun, which did something similar to this.
| Turin the Mad |
Also: extradimensional items all tap into the Astral Plane - they will also cease to operate or their contents will be scattered and effectively permanently lost depending on how the disaster's 'physics' works. (The contents could also be barfed atop the square they are in at the moment of the Kaput.)
| Nep |
It's for a stand alone campaign where this is a part of the events just before the PC's come into the picture. I don't want to be too explicit about the story, as there is a conceivable risk that some of the intended players find this, but suffice to say that dealing with the consequences is a large part of the campaign, while finding out why it happened and hopefully fixing it is another.
According to the magic rules clerics draw power from deities or divine forces white paladins draw power from the divine forces of good and law and druids the divine forces of nature. As far as I am concerned, druid spells are then the only divine source which might still be reachable, as there are planes for the different alignments and paladins are devoted to a single god.
This could have the interesting effect of making druids comparatively more powerful once they realise that no other divine casters can use magic, driving them to be more aggressive in defending and reclaiming land.
Turin: do you have a reference for that? It sounds plausible and I like the idea, but still.
| Turin the Mad |
Turin: do you have a reference for that? It sounds plausible and I like the idea, but still.
Hrm ... interestingly enough, the only reference I can find is the interaction between bags of holding and portable holes - which of course won't work without the astral plane.
Interestingly, removing the astral plane leaves several extraplanar movement modes open: shadow walk and the ethereal spells.
An idea: when water can no flonger flow along its accustomed channels, what happens? ;)
| Kazaan |
Well, the Astral Plane acts as kind of a buffer between all the other planes. So if it ceased to exist, I can see two possible results:
A) The other planes collapse against each other and are now bordering directly without the astral buffer in place. This means that inter-dimensional travel becomes much easier, with rifts to other dimensions popping open spontaneously and frequently. Various deities that exist on those outer planes would still be able to interact with their mortal agents, but without a buffer in place, the power would be much more wild and direct; possibly burning out a number of divine casters who can't handle the strain.
B) The other planes are now "free-floating" without a common anchor. Inter-dimensional travel becomes impossible unless one of those planes happens to "drift" against another one, in which case you'd have the same random rifts opening up, but it'd be more in spurts of high and low activity and only between two specific planes that happen to be in proper alignment, rather than just happening all the time. A higher-power plane might even catastrophically collide with a lower-power plane causing a partial merging of the two which will then proceed to "float" around as a single unit (at least until separated by some means).
| Nep |
Travinator: I'll look for it, thanks.
Turin: yeah, I noticed there were still options for travel, but as far as I have found none of them are as powerful as teleport, and shadow walk is another 2 levels in a caster class. Which is nice, because it means I can mostly limit myself to relatively specific geographic areas for the first part of the campaign, making a long journey become a possibility for the first part of the campaign.
For the water: generally it floods until another path can be found, not seldom with disastrous results.
Kazaan: interesting ideas. I was thinking of mainly rendering it impassable (i.e. still there but touching wouldn't make a connection between planes) but your ideas feel like they could be used well to ramp up the pressure as the campaign progresses. As the event is supposed to happen just before the players begin, the planes might take a while before they start to collide, and only infrequently at first.
Kazred
|
Beyond departed souls and divine spell-casting, you might want to delve into the psychological effects on the living. What happens to people when they're severed from the spiritual world? The Golden Compass comes to mind (the novel, not the crappy movie), but there are a lot of other possibilities.
Also, with the absence of Outer Planar gods, maybe something from the Inner Planes tries to horn in on the religion business.
| Laurefindel |
A few thoughts from what I've read so far:
1. Spells like teleport rely on a quick stop in the astral plane. They would cease to work.
3. Souls could not travel to the afterlife...
In combination of 1 and 3; summoning spells would cease to function and if the connection terminates abruptly, summoned creatures would either be unable to depart or dematerialize instantaneously.
| Laurefindel |
Also: extradimensional items all tap into the Astral Plane - they will also cease to operate or their contents will be scattered and effectively permanently lost depending on how the disaster's 'physics' works. (The contents could also be barfed atop the square they are in at the moment of the Kaput.)
I'm not sure to what extent Golarion's cosmology if different from pre-4 ed D&D, but didn't items like portable holes, bags of holding and spells like secret chess and magnificent mansion tap into the ethereal rather than the astral?
This also lead me to believe that without an astral world to transit from, spell caster would look seriously into ethereal solutions. Which makes me wonder, could summon monster call an elemental creature even with transiting by the astral?
| Turin the Mad |
Turin the Mad wrote:Also: extradimensional items all tap into the Astral Plane - they will also cease to operate or their contents will be scattered and effectively permanently lost depending on how the disaster's 'physics' works. (The contents could also be barfed atop the square they are in at the moment of the Kaput.)I'm not sure to what extent Golarion's cosmology if different from pre-4 ed D&D, but didn't items like portable holes, bags of holding and spells like secret chess and magnificent mansion tap into the ethereal rather than the astral?
This also lead me to believe that without an astral world to transit from, spell caster would look seriously into ethereal solutions. Which makes me wonder, could summon monster call an elemental creature even with transiting by the astral?
I think you are correct about extradimensional storage - to take it a bit further, I think/guess they are stabilized demiplanes in miniature. Which dovetails nicely in with secret chest as the primary spell used to construct most extradimensional storage items.
Elementals in some cosmosologies would transit the Ethereal instead of the Astral (with the Inner/Elemental Planes connected to the Ethereal instead of the Astral). I would think that the transitional time is vastly slower though. summoning spells wouldn't work, but with research to modify them calling spells could potentially be made to work - provided that they call creatures that have some ability to transition between planes on their own accord. Interesting ...
| Jeven |
2. Any travel or contact with the outer planes would be impossible. The gods would not be reachable and presumably divine casters could not cast or prepare any spells (at least not prepare).
There could be a couple of exceptions. At least one god, perhaps others has a direct connection to the world - Rovagug is trapped within a pocket connected to the heart of Golarion. So his priests should still receive spells.
Also powerful minions of the gods are supposed to provide lower level spells, so if any of those (powerful celestials or fiends) happened to have been on Golarion when the link was severed they should be able to continue to supply some spells to the clerics.
You could just set arbitrary limits for each deity, priests of one might have no spells, while those of another could receive up to 4th level spells but no higher.
Kthulhu
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There could be a couple of exceptions. At least one god, perhaps others has a direct connection to the world - Rovagug is trapped within a pocket connected to the heart of Golarion. So his priests should still receive spells.
There's also Desna, the Outer Gods, and the Great Old Ones making their homes on the Material Plane.
| Kitsune Knight |
Another interesting question would be: What of those dieties that where formally mortal? Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, Irori, Uragothoa, and Nethys where all mortal, or rumored to be mortal, before their divine ascension. It could be interesting if this former connection spared these deities from trouble after the astral was destroyed. Or if your running home-brew deities you could have deities with the same connection be spared as well.
This would actually be interesting as you would still allow for clerics of any alignment and Paladins of Irori and Iomedae (as well as Anti-Paladins of Rovagug, Urgathoa, and Norgorber) while still allowing for a large amount of other clerics and Paladins to suddenly lose their power and still be incredible rare.
Would also be interesting to see if minor deifies from the inner planes would try to seize power in the resulting calamity.
| Nep |
You people are magnificent!
Re: the summoning thing
Summoners are definitely going to have a bad time.
I'm certainly intrigued by having a number of called extraplanar creatures realize that they cannot return to their native plane even when no spell caster is binding them.
Also, the price of divine-only wands, scrolls and potions are going to skyrocket, while staves would probably be considered useless. Although, depending on interpretation, Alchemists may be highly sought after for healing.
Side-note: do elemental evocation spells draw power from the elemental planes?
| Nep |
Kitsune: interesting concept with some gods keeping power, unfortunately it doesn't mesh very well with the plot I have in mind. Some minor deities showing up and playing tough guy is almost a certainty though, that's just too good to pass on.
A question on the topic Jeven brought up with servants powerful minions supplying spells: is there a list of the minions each god uses, or is it just a variety of different outsiders?
Another thing: gate is not listed as a conjuration (teleportation) spell but as calling or creation. Does this mean that the gate opens between two planes directly, without going through the astral plane?
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration-Teleportation
| Jeven |
A question on the topic Jeven brought up with servants powerful minions supplying spells: is there a list of the minions each god uses, or is it just a variety of different outsiders?
I don't think its really spelled out anywhere, but presumably it means powerful outsiders like Angels (for the good gods). The Commune spell also mentions these same minions or agents.
| Nep |
Nep wrote:I don't think its really spelled out anywhere, but presumably it means powerful outsiders like Angels (for the good gods). The Commune spell also mentions these same minions or agents.
A question on the topic Jeven brought up with servants powerful minions supplying spells: is there a list of the minions each god uses, or is it just a variety of different outsiders?
Right, I found a list of outsiders on d20pfsrd and a quick skim indicates several options depending on alignment (aeons, archons, angels, agathions, azatas, demons, daemons, devils, etc.). There's also a page on divine heralds: here.
| Turin the Mad |
A gate does not transit the Astral Plane. So a major question to answer is going to be what happens when the Major Servants of the Gods open gates and step through to find out what is going on? When Pharasma/ the god(dess) of the afterlife notices that souls are no longer coming in, they're going to investigate.
Although if they're getting ambushed and snacked upon by Things Man Was Not Meant to Know it would be pretty humorous.
ElyasRavenwood
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Check out Midnight RPG This would be a good place to look for what happens when a world is cut off from external planes.
Oh the whole tone of the campaign is "It has been 100 years since the Shadow fell'. I guess the idea is that "frodo" failed to destroy the ring....what happens next?