Hello everyone! Long time 3.5 player and just getting around buying/reading Pathfinder books and I'm loving them. So with the gnome's new racial stats an odd idea came into my head, a Gnome Paladin. I've wanted to play one in 3.5, but never could muster up the courage to play one.
Now here's the little guy at level one, I'll be playing him next week in a VT game.
Str: 6
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 19
HP: 13 AC:20 4(armor)+2(Shield)+2(Dex)+1(Size)
Fort-+4 Ref-+2 Will-+0 (These will get massively better when I can add my Cha bonus)
As you can see he'll definitely be the face of the party, but notice the crippling 6 strength. This is kind of crucial to the back story being rejected by the monastery of Lomedae for being too weak, but trained by another paladin despite this obvious short coming (HAH PUN!). Anyways I'm planning on filling more of a tanky-face role in this party, but I'll try to make my damage at least sub-par and not garbage levels.
Feats- Weapon Finesse
I'm using a rapier to try to get some benefit out of my dexterity and not use my horrible strength score.
Anyways I'm just asking for some feat direction for this little guy as he levels up in the campaign. I know he'll be quite the useful up-front fighter in the matter of taking blows, but I also want to be a competent supporter as well. Any tips or suggestions is much appreciated.
I'm also playing in the Carrion Crown Campaign setting if any of you are familiar with the setting. I briefly read the player's guide and it seems like it'd be a good fit paladin/cleric wise.
Books Allowed- Everything under the sun. My gm is pretty open to character concepts.
((Stats are made with a 20pt point buy system))
http://i49.tinypic.com/2yv53ki.png
Picture of the precious sweet little gnomey!
You don't list which books are allowed but here is a feat called Dervish Dance from The inner Sea World Guide that allows you to use a scimitar one-handed (no shield in off hand) and add your dex modifier to damage instead of strength. You could always fluff it as the Paladin that trained you was worshipping Saranrae as the scimitar and dervish dance is associated with her.
The feat can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat
whaarg wrote: You don't list which books are allowed but here is a feat called Dervish Dance from The inner Sea World Guide that allows you to use a scimitar one-handed (no shield in off hand) and add your dex modifier to damage instead of strength. You could always fluff it as the Paladin that trained you was worshipping Saranrae as the scimitar and dervish dance is associated with her.
The feat can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat
Yeah I was just looking at that in a the optimized paladin thread. Do you think it'd be beneficial to drop the shield in order to use this to pump out extra damage? Does the feat work with a buckler?
My gm will most likely allow it and it definitely fills a needed niche in my character. -2 dmg is pretty harsh.
Use crossbows at the early levels, then get the Agile weapon property on your rapier when you can afford it.
Or get Dervish Dance and retrain it after you buy your Agile rapier +1 (or even keep it in case your rapier gets sundered or stolen).
The black raven wrote: Use crossbows at the early levels, then get the Agile weapon property on your rapier when you can afford it.
Or get Dervish Dance and retrain it after you buy your Agile rapier +1 (or even keep it in case your rapier gets sundered or stolen).
Hmm while the crossbow is a good idea at early levels, but I really need to defend some of the spellcasters in the party.
Human Sorceress (Celestial bloodline)
Halfling Alchemist (Tiny bloodline)
Human Cleric (of Pharasma)
Gnome Paladin (of Iomedae)
Half Elf Summoner (of Doom)
I guess I could let the Cleric do most of the tanking early on, but I kind of feel like it'll go against my character concept using a crossbow in general. More of a typical paladin, defender of the weak, all that jazz.
I'll definitely look into the Agile rapier though when available. I'd rather get that affect via an item than feat too. (2 ranks in perform(dance) seems a little off character)
I think that it would be, since you already are medium encumbered, you can't carry very much with a 6 in strength, I would also consider Dodge. It could mitigate the loss of the shield.
I don't think that it would work with a buckler.
Are you dead set on the distribution of your ability score? If you lower Charisma with 1 point I think you can up the strength by 2 and almost every other score by 1.
whaarg wrote: I think that it would be, since you already are medium encumbered, you can't carry very much with a 6 in strength, I would also consider Dodge. It could mitigate the loss of the shield.
I don't think that it would work with a buckler.
Are you dead set on the distribution of your ability score? If you lower Charisma with 1 point I think you can up the strength by 2 and almost every other score by 1.
No I'm definitely not dead set on attribute scores they can flexed a bit. I do want at least an 8 strength to start out with. With 18 starting cha guessing at level 4 I'd raise my dex to 16?
Ok doing some playing around with the numbers if I lowered my base Cha to 16 from 17, I'd be allotted 3 points. With this I could bring dex to 15 and str up to 7. Do you think this would be a good path to take?
Thanks a lot for all the ideas everybody. Also if you're interested my traits right now are:
Armor Expert- Wearing armor during his childhood Zaharias became accustomed to such encumbrance. Armor check penalties are lessened by 1.
Child of the Temple- Studying tomes of nobility and royalty from the point he could read such things became second nature to Zaharias. +1 to knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Knowledge (Religion) checks.
As a small paladin with Strength 6, I would consider mounted archery. Go all mongolian archer on your enemies. ^^
If you have to dismount, you still have normal archery, which should help you stay out of trouble a bit longer. And once you get into melee, you still have d10+2 hit points, which should be quite generous staying power for an archer.
Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and Rapid Reload can all be taken at 3rd level, and you'd get the special mount at 5th. Since you are already mounted, pick up a lance for sweet double damage.
My suggestion would be play an archer as well.. Stat wise u dont need that much chatisma starting out.. Only full spellcasters should go all out like that imo.. I would do these stats instead:
Str-13-2=11(so u can atually carry some stuff)+1at 4th..
Dex-14
Con-12+2=14
Int-10
Wis-10
Cha-16+2=18
Fav Class Bonus +1/2 hit points to your lay on hands..
Feats:
Fey Foundling-Increases any heals you do by an additional 2 points..
At 10th level your LoH will be healing 5d6+15 per use, or 6d6+17 with greater mercy..
You 1st level attack will be at +4 with a longbow..
You still get 2 skill points per level, so you can still be the face with a +8 diplomacy roll at 1st level.. I would get a trait that allows perception as a class skill(there are a few) and put my other point there or alternate between some knowledge stuff..
Addtional Level Feats:
3rd: Point Blank Shot
5th: Precise Shot
7th: Rapid Shot
9th: Deadly Aim
11th: Improved Precise Shot
13th: ManyShot
15th: Clustered Shots
Consider Oath of Vengeance archetype for maximum smites ot Warrior of Holy Light to go rediculous with LoH, or go both since they stack(what i would do).. Although you do loose heroic defiance in doing that.. Good Luck, hope this helps!
WerePox47 wrote: My suggestion would be play an archer as well.. Stat wise u dont need that much chatisma starting out.. Only full spellcasters should go all out like that imo.. I would do these stats instead:
Str-13-2=11(so u can atually carry some stuff)+1at 4th..
Dex-14
Con-12+2=14
Int-10
Wis-10
Cha-16+2=18
Fav Class Bonus +1/2 hit points to your lay on hands..
Feats:
Fey Foundling-Increases any heals you do by an additional 2 points..
At 10th level your LoH will be healing 5d6+15 per use, or 6d6+17 with greater mercy..
You 1st level attack will be at +4 with a longbow..
You still get 2 skill points per level, so you can still be the face with a +8 diplomacy roll at 1st level.. I would get a trait that allows perception as a class skill(there are a few) and put my other point there or alternate between some knowledge stuff..
Addtional Level Feats:
3rd: Point Blank Shot
5th: Precise Shot
7th: Rapid Shot
9th: Deadly Aim
11th: Improved Precise Shot
13th: ManyShot
15th: Clustered Shots
Consider Oath of Vengeance archetype for maximum smites ot Warrior of Holy Light to go rediculous with LoH, or go both since they stack(what i would do).. Although you do loose heroic defiance in doing that.. Good Luck, hope this helps!
I really really like this build! Only issue is my character concept kind of relies on below average strength. Can all this be done with 8 strength? I know carry weight will be an issue, but I do plan on getting a pony or dog at level 5 so he can mule some of my gear.
I think I'm looking at these ability scores
Str 7
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 18
Fav Class Bonus +1/2 hit points to your lay on hands..
^ That appears to be a halfling only favored class option, I'll ask my GM, but I doubt he'll allow that one. I like the Oath of Vengeance archetype, I was considering Shining Knight one for better mounted combat. I'm thinking riding dog or pony. Any better mount options for a small character?
Fey Foundling improves healing that you receive, not the healing that you do. (The added benefit of +2 vs. death attacks & the drawback of taking +1 point of damage when hit by cold iron weapons is mechanical fluff.)
Turin the Mad wrote: Fey Foundling improves healing that you receive, not the healing that you do. (The added benefit of +2 vs. death attacks & the drawback of taking +1 point of damage when hit by cold iron weapons is mechanical fluff.) Oh! That makes it much less beneficial. I was thinking of picking it up as my first level feat, but if it doesn't work on MY lay on hands it feels kind of worthless to me.
Anyways this is the build I'm thinking of so far.
Ability scores
str-7
dex-15
con-14
int-12
wis-10
cha-18
Oath of Vengeance Archetype
Skills:
(Taking extra skill point per level if I can't get halfing favor class option)
Craft- +7
Diplomacy- +9
Perception- +5
Ride- +0 (with -6 acp)
Feats-
1st-Weapon Finesse
3rd-Dervish Dance Combat
6th-Mounted Combat
9th-Improved Critical
Languages: Common, Gnomish, Sylvan, and Dwarven.
Traits:
Armor Expert- Wearing armor during his childhood Zaharias became accustomed to such encumbrance. Armor check penalties are lessened by 1.
Eyes and Ears of the City
Your religious training was entwined with your work serving the city watch of a large city, the primary duty of which was standing sentinel on a city wall.
Benefit You gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, and Perception is always a class skill for you.
--------------------------------------
While playing a ranged paladin does sound like fun, it's not what I envisioned for the character. He's out of his element on the front lines, but it's where he feels like he belongs.
Fey Foundling works just fine with your Lay on Hands ... when you use it on yourself. ;)
Oaktree wrote: I'm using a rapier to try to get some benefit out of my dexterity and not use my horrible strength score.! Unfortunately you can't get away from your horrible strength score. With a Rapier sized to you, your damage comes out to 1d4-2. You're going to be averaging the minimum of 1 pt of damage per strike. And your encumbrance goes straight to the pits. And you can't finesse an oversize rapier either. The only time you'll do any significant damage is when you smite, and at first level, that's only an extra 1 or 2 pts. (Your massive charisma only adds to the to-hit value, not damage)
Your Paladin isn't unorthodox, it's unworkable. If you try to go the dervish dance route, you're going to toss away your shield bonus. ( and no, the buckler can't be used with the feat. your off arm has to remain bare.)
LazarX wrote: Oaktree wrote: I'm using a rapier to try to get some benefit out of my dexterity and not use my horrible strength score.! Unfortunately you can't get away from your horrible strength score. With a Rapier sized to you, your damage comes out to 1d4-2. You're going to be averaging the minimum of 1 pt of damage per strike. And your encumbrance goes straight to the pits. And you can't finesse an oversize rapier either. The only time you'll do any significant damage is when you smite, and at first level, that's only an extra 1 or 2 pts. (Your massive charisma only adds to the to-hit value, not damage)
Your Paladin isn't unorthodox, it's unworkable. If you try to go the dervish dance route, you're going to toss away your shield bonus. ( and no, the buckler can't be used with the feat. your off arm has to remain bare.)
Still if I'm able to get an agile weapon all that you put forth is moot and I'd be doing 1d4+2 so an average of 4 damage a successful strike. I'd be fine allowing others in my party to do damage while I tank/off-heal especially since most of my party members are ranged at the moment. Also you might be not considering the fact that a lot of possible creatures in the setting are undead allowing me to do 1d6 lay on hands damage attempts early on in lieu of attacks.
I'm under the firm belief that nothing is unworkable in d&d, I'd play a 6 int wizard if it fit the character concept.
Oaktree wrote: LazarX wrote: Oaktree wrote: I'm using a rapier to try to get some benefit out of my dexterity and not use my horrible strength score.! Unfortunately you can't get away from your horrible strength score. With a Rapier sized to you, your damage comes out to 1d4-2. You're going to be averaging the minimum of 1 pt of damage per strike. And your encumbrance goes straight to the pits. And you can't finesse an oversize rapier either. The only time you'll do any significant damage is when you smite, and at first level, that's only an extra 1 or 2 pts. (Your massive charisma only adds to the to-hit value, not damage)
Your Paladin isn't unorthodox, it's unworkable. If you try to go the dervish dance route, you're going to toss away your shield bonus. ( and no, the buckler can't be used with the feat. your off arm has to remain bare.)
Still if I'm able to get an agile weapon all that you put forth is moot and I'd be doing 1d4+2 so an average of 4 damage a successful strike. I'd be fine allowing others in my party to do damage while I tank/off-heal especially since most of my party members are ranged at the moment. Also you might be not considering the fact that a lot of possible creatures in the setting are undead allowing me to do 1d6 lay on hands damage attempts early on in lieu of attacks.
I'm under the firm belief that nothing is unworkable in d&d, I'd play a 6 int wizard if it fit the character concept. Here's the thing. Tanking is something that you do in an MMORG because you can taunt a foe to strike you even though you'd be a monumentally stupid choice of targets. In Golarion, if a monster is faced with someone doing one point of damage per strike, and another cranking out 10+ per round, it's going to be wailing on the heavy hitter, not you. The only way you can "tank" in Pathfinder is by being the guy doing the heavy hitting and forcing it's attention, despite your armor class. Also, armor class, which seems to be what you're building for becomes less and less valuable as the levels go up.
And yes, while Rincewind may be an amusing character to play for some, He'd be nothing but baggage in a Pathfinder group.
And doing 1d4+2 damage at the appropriate level that you'd be buying an equivalent +2 weapon, isn't exactly something that makes you a significant threat.
LazarX wrote: Oaktree wrote: LazarX wrote: Oaktree wrote: I'm using a rapier to try to get some benefit out of my dexterity and not use my horrible strength score.! Unfortunately you can't get away from your horrible strength score. With a Rapier sized to you, your damage comes out to 1d4-2. You're going to be averaging the minimum of 1 pt of damage per strike. And your encumbrance goes straight to the pits. And you can't finesse an oversize rapier either. The only time you'll do any significant damage is when you smite, and at first level, that's only an extra 1 or 2 pts. (Your massive charisma only adds to the to-hit value, not damage)
Your Paladin isn't unorthodox, it's unworkable. If you try to go the dervish dance route, you're going to toss away your shield bonus. ( and no, the buckler can't be used with the feat. your off arm has to remain bare.)
Still if I'm able to get an agile weapon all that you put forth is moot and I'd be doing 1d4+2 so an average of 4 damage a successful strike. I'd be fine allowing others in my party to do damage while I tank/off-heal especially since most of my party members are ranged at the moment. Also you might be not considering the fact that a lot of possible creatures in the setting are undead allowing me to do 1d6 lay on hands damage attempts early on in lieu of attacks.
I'm under the firm belief that nothing is unworkable in d&d, I'd play a 6 int wizard if it fit the character concept. Here's the thing. Tanking is something that you do in an MMORG because you can taunt a foe to strike you even though you'd be a monumentally stupid choice of targets. In Golarion, if a monster is faced with someone doing one point of damage per strike, and another cranking out 10+ per round, it's going to be wailing on the heavy hitter, not you. The only way you can "tank" in Pathfinder is by being the guy doing the heavy hitting and forcing it's attention, despite your armor class. Also, armor class, which seems to be... You act as if monsters incur no penalties for straight-lining it right past melee opponents. Almost every situation this monster would open itself up to two attacks of opportunity from me and the cleric. Potentially doing another 1d4-2 (1d4+2 at lvl 3) and 1d8+2 damage. Also upon looking at options I'll probably go http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat for the dexterity bonus. Fighting without a shield isn't ideal, but it's far from unplayable.
I think until level 3 I will just roll with a heavy crossbow anyways. I'd be just getting the 1d20+2, 1d20-2 against targets in melee, but it's worth it for the 1d8 until I can get a damage bonus off my melee attacks.
EDIT- Also talking with my gm he said he would allow Agile as an alternative effect for a Divine Bonded weapon. I'm not too sure on this one as it would open up a feat and shield options, but take away a holy mount. Any suggestions on whether I should continue with the Dervish build and keep the mount or take this option?
Oaktree wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Here's the thing. Tanking is something that you do in an MMORG because you can taunt a foe to strike you even though you'd be a monumentally stupid choice of targets. In Golarion, if a monster is faced with someone doing one point of damage per strike, and another cranking out 10+ per round, it's going to be wailing on the heavy hitter, not you. The only way you can "tank" in Pathfinder is by being the guy doing the heavy hitting and forcing it's attention, despite your armor class.
...
You act as if monsters incur no penalties for straight-lining it right past melee opponents. Almost every situation this monster would open itself up to two attacks of opportunity from me and the cleric. Potentially doing another 1d4-2 (1d4+2 at lvl 3) and 1d8+2 damage. Also upon looking at options I'll probably go http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat for the dexterity bonus. Fighting without a shield isn't ideal, but it's far from unplayable.
In a world where fights always occur in 5 foot corridors, and your baddies always come at you from the front, you'd be perfectly right. In fights where there's at least a 2 square wide frontage, that means you're sharing the front line with at least one other person. And if that one other person is the one who's really hurting me, then he's going to get the bulk of my attention.
If you are determined to go melee, you need to raise your strength to at least an 8, as that seems to be your max for your back story. That extra point of damage will be very useful.
Mounted combat w/ a rapier seems very...odd to me, but if you like it, enjoy.
Buy some Muleback Cords as soon as you can, should really help w/ the carrying capacity.
Is there a reason you are using ranks on crafting? You might want to drop those in favor of more HP w/ the favored class bonus.
Oaktree wrote: whaarg wrote: I think that it would be, since you already are medium encumbered, you can't carry very much with a 6 in strength, I would also consider Dodge. It could mitigate the loss of the shield.
I don't think that it would work with a buckler.
Are you dead set on the distribution of your ability score? If you lower Charisma with 1 point I think you can up the strength by 2 and almost every other score by 1.
Ok from doing the math with 7 strength and all my starting equipment (including Heavy Crossbow) I'm at 27.5 pounds,
Quote: If you are determined to go melee, you need to raise your strength to at least an 8, as that seems to be your max for your back story. That extra point of damage will be very useful.
Mounted combat w/ a rapier seems very...odd to me, but if you like it, enjoy.
Buy some Muleback Cords as soon as you can, should really help w/ the carrying capacity.
Is there a reason you are using ranks on crafting? You might want to drop those in favor of more HP w/ the favored class bonus.
I'm going to be using a scimitar now, but yeah it'll be different. Yeah I can see that I was taking crafting armor or weapons in case we needed someone to repair items, but if I can get the Halfling favored class bonus for paladins I'm going to take the extra hp most likely or sub the 12 int for the skill point boost. I haven't talked to the gm yet about such things.
Gnomes absolutley get the +1/2 to lay on hands.. And yes fey foundling only works on u, but its still worth taking.. An extra 2 points of healing per die + the fav class bonus would add up quick.. Ntm any healing u recieve from wands, channels, or spells from cleric buddy will be enchanced as well.. Im goin to agree with Laser in that the only sufficient way to tank in PF is to do massive damage.. Being small even makes u less of a threat in that CMB's work on u easier.. If u must dump str u might wanna get away from being melee.. Mounted Archery could be decent with this guy.. Mounted Melee and the enemy will prob just overlook u for more threatining targets, or just kill ur mount.. In the end its up to u, but i cant help but think ur going to be vastly disappointed with this guy as is.. Good Luck regardless..
|
