I see mention of people dipping Maneuver Master fairly often in order to get the flurry of maneuvers ability. I'm interested in doing this but the wording on the ability seems to suggest that it would be suboptimal, using only monk level in place of BAB for CMB and not adding monk level to BAB from other classes.
Flurry of Maneuvers:
"The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers."
This is in comparison to the wording for the normal monk Flurry of Blows:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level."
Is there some obscure ruling I'm missing that is making this dip worthwhile?
I see mention of people dipping Maneuver Master fairly often in order to get the flurry of maneuvers ability. I'm interested in doing this but the wording on the ability seems to suggest that it would be suboptimal, using only monk level in place of BAB for CMB and not adding monk level to BAB from other classes.
Flurry of Maneuvers:
"The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers."
This is in comparison to the wording for the normal monk Flurry of Blows:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level."
Is there some obscure ruling I'm missing that is making this dip worthwhile?
Monks are a 3/4 BAB class meaning that their BAB is not equal to their level like a fighter.
So this, "The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers.",
Pretty much means add one for each monk level instead of the monk's lesser BAB.
I see mention of people dipping Maneuver Master fairly often in order to get the flurry of maneuvers ability. I'm interested in doing this but the wording on the ability seems to suggest that it would be suboptimal, using only monk level in place of BAB for CMB and not adding monk level to BAB from other classes.
Flurry of Maneuvers:
"The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers."
This is in comparison to the wording for the normal monk Flurry of Blows:
"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level."
Is there some obscure ruling I'm missing that is making this dip worthwhile?
Monks are a 3/4 BAB class meaning that their BAB is not equal to their level like a fighter.
So this, "The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers.",
Pretty much means add one for each monk level instead of the monk's lesser BAB.
Yep, you have to remember that Base Attack Bonus always stacks when multiclassing, so when you dip Maneuver Master you're essentially adding +1 to your BAB for combat maneuvers (ONLY AS PART OF A FLURRY OF MANEUVERS, this is an important distinction!), and +0 to your BAB for all other attacks and maneuvers.
So all these class abilities reference class additions to a character rather than the character's total stat?
I guess the part that confuses me is the difference in wording between the two abilities. It seems like one specifically is calling out monk only levels replacing BAB while the other specifies that the monk portion of the total is what gets modified.
So all these class abilities reference class additions to a character rather than the character's total stat?
I guess the part that confuses me is the difference in wording between the two abilities. It seems like one specifically is calling out monk only levels replacing BAB while the other specifies that the monk portion of the total is what gets modified.
Yes, any class ability that "replaces" base attack bonus with hit dice only affects the base attack bonus for that class. For example, with a standard monk you get BAB equal to your hit dice for flurry of blows. But if you made a Monk/Sorcerer, your Sorcerer levels would still only contribute 1/2 the associated hit dice to your BAB, no matter how many levels of Monk you have.
To illustrate, say you had 4 levels of MM and 16 levels of, for the sake of example, Fighter.
Your total BAB for attacks and non-flurry maneuvers would be 3(monk bab) + 16(fighter bab) = 19 BAB. For flurry maneuvers, it would be 4(monk level) + 16(fighter bab) = 20.
I think the confusion is in the general rules for multiclassing itself.
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
So with Flurry of Maneuvers being a Class ability, it seems to override the general rule of CMB being the total of BAB from all classes plus other modifiers.
The example you gave of a 4th level Maneuver Master/16th Level fighter is still confusing because at 3rd level Maneuver Master the Monk gains Maneuver Training.
"At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally."
So your example was correct, but would it have still been correct if it had been a 2nd level Maneuver Master/18th Level Fighter?
Form http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk
Editor's Note: Flurry of Blows:
The monk rules for flurry of blows state: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
Although this FAQ is about Flurry of Blows and not Flurry of Maneuvers, I feel that this indirectly answers the question.
I don't believe paizo would make an ability that would intentionally overwrite your BAB for your other classes.
Flurry of Maneuvers:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Using an example of fighter 19/monk 1 using flurry of maneuvers with only Combat Maneuvers
fighter 19/monk 1 natural BAB
+19/+14/+9/+4
non-bonus maneuvers with FoM's -2
+17/+12/+7/+2
If FoM over-writes BAB form other classes,
1st: +17, Bonus: -1 2nd: +12 3rd:+7 Last:+2
If FoM adds BAB form other classes,
1st: +17, Bonus: +18 2nd: +12 3rd:+7 Last:+2
cartmanbeck wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:
So this, "The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers.",
Pretty much means add one for each monk level instead of the monk's lesser BAB.
Yep, you have to remember that Base Attack Bonus always stacks when multiclassing, so when you dip Maneuver Master you're essentially adding +1 to your BAB for combat maneuvers (ONLY AS PART OF A FLURRY OF MANEUVERS, this is an important distinction!), and +0 to your BAB for all other attacks and maneuvers.
cartmanbeck wrote:
Saba wrote:
So all these class abilities reference class additions to a character rather than the character's total stat?
I guess the part that confuses me is the difference in wording between the two abilities. It seems like one specifically is calling out monk only levels replacing BAB while the other specifies that the monk portion of the total is what gets modified.
Yes, any class ability that "replaces" base attack bonus with hit dice only affects the base attack bonus for that class. For example, with a standard monk you get BAB equal to your hit dice for flurry of blows. But if you made a Monk/Sorcerer, your Sorcerer levels would still only contribute 1/2 the associated hit dice to your BAB, no matter how many levels of Monk you have.
Jacob and cartmanback's interpretation of Flurry of Maneuvers make more since for mutli-classing.
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