Implications of half non-class levels counting to class levels

[Ganymede425]

Imagine that, when calculating the abilities of one class of a multiclass character, you could add half of a character's non-class levels to his class level. In other words, if someone was a 2/2 Rogue/Cleric, he would have the abilities of a third level rogue and a third level cleric.

Naturally, this would only apply to abilities that aren't directly stackable between classes: BAB, saves, HP, etc.

What would be the in game implications of such a paradigm?

[j b 200]

this would significantly increase the power level of a multiclass character over single class characters.

A Fighter/Wizard 4/4 would have a BAB of +7 and 3rd level spells but a strait up Wizard 8 would be at 4th and the Figher 8 would only be one ahead in BAB.

[Ganymede425]

j b 200 wrote:

this would significantly increase the power level of a multiclass character over single class characters.

A Fighter/Wizard 4/4 would have a BAB of +7 and 3rd level spells but a strait up Wizard 8 would be at 4th and the Figher 8 would only be one ahead in BAB.

He'd only have a BAB of +6, the same as a similar character under the current rules.

But in either case, are you saying that a 4/4 character with the class features of a 6/6 character would be more powerful than a level 8 character in either class?

[BillyGoat]

j b 200 wrote:

A Fighter/Wizard 4/4 would have a BAB of +7 and 3rd level spells but a strait up Wizard 8 would be at 4th and the Figher 8 would only be one ahead in BAB.

Not to argue the basic conclusion that it's a potentially drastic rise in multiclassed power vs single-class, but you're BAB for the Fighter/Wizard is off:

Fighter 4 BAB = 4, Wizard 4 BAB = 2

Fighter4/Wizard4 BAB = 6

What that Fighter/Wizard does have under the variant rule is
-Weapon Training 1
-6th level Bonus Fighter Feat
-Bravery +2
-5th level Bonus Wizard Feat
-Caster Level 6
-+1 2nd Level Spell slot
-+2 3rd Level Spell slot

For my money, this makes multiclassing essential to a good build.

And it would get absurd when you extend the number of classes this could get expanded across. Worst case with 1 level dip in each of eight different classes, you'd have the effective class abilities of Level 4 in each of these eight classes.

[johnlocke90]

This would make martial dips more appealing. Two levels in monk gets you some really nice stuff that would be even better with scaling. Barbarian or fighter dip would benefit similarly. Paladin dip would be much more appealing with smite evil and lay on hands scaling.

I don't think casters would be overpowered from this. Full casters really want that spell progression and even half speed would still hurt.

[BillyGoat]

johnlocke90 wrote:

This would make martial dips more appealing. Two levels in monk gets you some really nice stuff that would be even better with scaling. Barbarian or fighter dip would benefit similarly. Paladin dip would be much more appealing with smite evil and lay on hands scaling.

I don't think casters would be overpowered from this. Full casters really want that spell progression and even half speed would still hurt.

Consider:

Bard2/Oracle2/Sorcerer2/Summoner2

This character has the bardic performance and spells of a level 5 Bard.

Also, the spells and mysteries of a level 5 Oracle.

The blasting power of a level 5 Sorcerer.

And the eidolon belonging to a 5th level Summoner.

I'll take the slower spell progression for that amount of output and versatility.

[Ganymede425]

johnlocke90 wrote:

This would make martial dips more appealing. Two levels in monk gets you some really nice stuff that would be even better with scaling.

Yeah, because of the way the rounding works, it would seem like it'd make a two level dip the norm. The second level in the dip would get you the same benefits of taking the level in the original class, but would also net you the benefits of that dipped level as well.

But would these benefits be too much?

I suppose you could look at the craziest example, a level 20 character with two levels in each of ten different classes. For each class, you'd have 18 non-class levels, meaning you'd get an effective bonus of +9 levels to each class.

Would a character with the abilities of 11th level in 10 classes be as powerful as someone with 20 levels in a single class?

[Caderyn]

I would assume bonus feats would come under things you get already from classes and thus wouldnt stack, you would need to restrict it to a smaller subject of a classes abilities to have some sense of being balanced (for example Oracle's curses progress at oracle level + 1/2 non oracle levels), If you progressed a single class ability (ie weapon training, OR armor training but not both) it would be more balanced, you could also progress bloodline, school, domain powers for casters instead of actual caster levels (would mean a fighter 4/wizard 6 is a wizard 8 for his school powers).

Pretty much leaving you with, choices from the things below (you could either make them choose, or you could choose for them)

Weapon Training, Armor Training, Bravery (from fighter)
Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace (from Paladin)
Ki points, unarmed strike damage progression, AC bonus (from monk)
Spell progression, school progression (from Wizard)
Spell progression, Bloodline powers (from sorc)
Spell progression, Domain powers (from Cleric)
Challenge (from Cavalier)

[Quatar]

Just to make it completely silly:
Level 20 character, with only 1 level in each base class (they're 19 of those) and 2 levels on one of them.

He'd be an level 10 in everyone of them (11 in the one with 2 levels)

Granted that's probably stupid, but it shows how silly that would be really.

a level 18/level 2 would suddenly be a level 19/11, while a level 20 is just a level 20.

Just doesn't seem right.

[Ganymede425]

But would those examples really be more powerful than a straight-up level 20 character?

[Salindurthas]

Probably. A lot of characters can benefit from a level 'dip' in another class already. If those dips became even better then those characters would become even better.

Now, if dipping was universally bad for a character, this might be a good adjustment to make, but powerful characters can already be made without this adjustment and they would get significantly stronger this way.

Certainly an interesting idea, though.

EDIT: I failed to words, so I re-worded.

[Ganymede425]

Hmm... the application here seems most managable when applied to an evenly divided multiclass, and most prone to weirdness when applied to dips.

I could see a way to throttle down the skewing of dips by putting a cap on the benefit. For example, you might only be able to benefit from a number of effective levels equal to your actual level in the class. That would mean an 18/2 would be treated as a 19/4 instead of a 19/11. That could be a fair way to manage it considering that it is often very painfull to miss out on the level 20 capstone.

[j b 200]

BillyGoat wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

A Fighter/Wizard 4/4 would have a BAB of +7 and 3rd level spells but a strait up Wizard 8 would be at 4th and the Figher 8 would only be one ahead in BAB.

Not to argue the basic conclusion that it's a potentially drastic rise in multiclassed power vs single-class, but you're BAB for the Fighter/Wizard is off:

Fighter 4 BAB = 4, Wizard 4 BAB = 2

Fighter4/Wizard4 BAB = 6

yeah I missed the part about BAB not stacking, but would still say that it would be overpowering.

The biggest issue for multiclasssing is the opportunity costs. For instance a Ninja really benefits from a 4 level dip in monk so you can have a Wis based Ki instead of Cha (not to mention that everything else synergizes well). So you have to take 4 levels of Monk, but have to wait for level 14 to get advanced talents, very late for most games. OR with your system he could take 1 level in monk, then by the time he's a level 1 monk/ 6 ninja, he has Wis Ki, Wis AC, great saves, 3d6 sneak attack, half a dozen bonus feats, fast movement and several very good ki abilities.

This is just one example, it allows for some serious powergaming. One level dip in Pal means that every other level my damage to evil goes up by +1, the same rate as power attack.

[Ganymede425]

What the heck is a Ninja?

[Peter Stewart]

Let me offer some advice based not in theory craft, but in practice.

My Saturday night game has allowed feats that do exactly what you suggest for years now. We went a small step further and had caster level stack fully for spellcasters. We also removed things like eldritch knight and arcane trickster.

The net result has been to make multi-classing more viable for spellcasters. I think if the DM wasn't careful you could see fighter / barbarians that were a bit stronger than normal fighters or barbarians, but on the whole we've seen no real 'breakage'. Spellcasters in particular haven't seemed overpowered as a result.

At the end of the day because Pathfinder rewards specialization, I have few concerns about this producing OP characters. It's strongest at low levels, while the higher you get the weaker it tends to become as people gain access to higher level stuff.

I consider the change to be one almost required to put multi-classing even in the same world as single classed focused characters.

YMMV obviously, but if your DM is letting you game the system for 1 level dips here or there, you probably have more severe problems than this.

[LazarX]

The only way this would work would be that players would have to deliberately avoid trying to take advantage of it.

This is a major powerup not for martials but for spellcasters, because many of you forget one basic bit of reality.

A lot of very powerful wizard spells are ranged attack spells that target touch AC. Part of the balancing act of such spells are the low BAB of the wizards who cast them. With one level of fighter, the wizard now gets a bunch of bonus combat feats to enhance those abilities. such as improved initiative, weapon focus (rays), greater weapon focus (rays), deadly aim, etc.

Or Wizards that channel like clerics, wildshape like druids, Sneak attack like rogues, etc. Add a pair of one level dips and it gets even crazier.

In a gaming group or society in which optimization is followed to even just a moderate degree, single class characters become extinct.

[Peter Stewart]

LazarX wrote:

The only way this would work would be that players would have to deliberately avoid trying to take advantage of it.

This is a major powerup not for martials but for spellcasters, because many of you forget one basic bit of reality.

A lot of very powerful wizard spells are ranged attack spells that target touch AC. Part of the balancing act of such spells are the low BAB of the wizards who cast them. With one level of fighter, the wizard now gets a bunch of bonus combat feats to enhance those abilities. such as improved initiative, weapon focus (rays), greater weapon focus (rays), deadly aim, etc.

Or Wizards that channel like clerics, wildshape like druids, Sneak attack like rogues, etc. Add a pair of one level dips and it gets even crazier.

In a gaming group or society in which optimization is followed to even just a moderate degree, single class characters become extinct.

I think you are underestimating how much it sucks to lag behind in spell access (much less caster level, though I'd have CL stack fully). That said I tend to think the best ways to make this work if those are your concerns are as follows:

1. Make the stacking a feat. E.g. Eldritch Knight - stack fighter / wizard levels 1/2. Arcane trickster - stack arcane caster and rogue levels.

2. Cap bonuses at 1/2 level of each class. E.g. if you are a wizard 16 / fighter 4, you get the abilities of a 18th level wizard and 6th level fighter. Alternative example rogue 10 / wizard 10 is a 15th level wizard and 15th level rogue.

[Ganymede425]

I would agree that, inherently, multiclassing into spellcasting classes is far more problematic than multiclassing into martial classes. While the abilities of most martial classes can stack reasonably well (you can rage while using a ranger's fighting style and a fighter's bonus feats), such is not the case with spellcasters. The ability to fight in combat progresses no matter what level you take, but your ability to cast spells immediately halts when you take a level in another class.

Also, it is important to remember the distinction of a multiclass dip and evenly distributing levels. While the former can offer some new abilities with a minimal downside, the latter is what is problematic. I do like Peter Stewart's proposal that limits the bonus to half of the class level. This would allow a level 10/10 to gain the full benefit, but would drastically limit its usefulness for those who only take a couple levels in another class.

[Kain Darkwind]

The point of limiting it to 1/2 lowest class level is to discourage the dips for a purely mechanical advantage, and to support someone who is using serious multiclassing. If your character concept is a barbarian with a dip of sorcerer, you already are doing just fine within the PF multiclassing system, but if you wanted to be a real barbarian/sorcerer, the system tends to let you down. (Those who disagree should compare the pure fighter to the multiclass barb/sorc in the Rival Guide)

The 1/2 cap is the second mechanic I introduced to modify the "add 1/2 non class levels to your class". Before I mandated that your class levels had to be within 1 level of each other if you took the feat, or you'd suffer mechanical and in character punishment. But that excluded dippers from the benefits entirely, and I wanted both serious and casual multiclassing to be valid.

So your rogue 8/sorcerer 2 has 9th level rogue abilities and 3rd level sorcerer abilities, as a 10th level character. A more even split, rogue 5/sorc 5, has 7th level abilities in both classes. The sorcerer dip isn't useless, but neither does it advance much from a dip. A dedicated multiclass character gains more benefit, but at the same time, they have more delayed access to the highest level abilities.

Now, Pete Stewart's character actually doesn't have the 1/2 class level cap. I removed it just to see what would happen if a dipped class was allowed to advance. So far it hasn't proven problematic, although that might be due to the dipped class (sorcerer) highly overlapping with the main class (wizard). On the other hand, the game is fairly high powered, even for its level, and Pete's character would probably be game breaking at a different table. The cap keeps those things from happening.

[j b 200]

Ganymede425 wrote:

What the heck is a Ninja?

Ninja

[Ganymede425]

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

What the heck is a Ninja?

Ninja

That's horrible. Might as well just make the class: Black Guy.

[j b 200]

Ganymede425 wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

What the heck is a Ninja?

Ninja

That's horrible. Might as well just make the class: Black Guy.

I can't decide if you are trying to be sarcastic, purposefully offensive or just ignorant.

[RadiantSophia]

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

What the heck is a Ninja?

Ninja

That's horrible. Might as well just make the class: Black Guy.

I can't decide if you are trying to be sarcastic, purposefully offensive or just ignorant.

I'm going to assume because of Cultural appropriation and misrepresentation. Which is actually no more true than in the case of Paladin, which is also a specific reference.

[Marc Radle]

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Ganymede425 wrote:

What the heck is a Ninja?

Ninja

That's horrible. Might as well just make the class: Black Guy.

I can't decide if you are trying to be sarcastic, purposefully offensive or just ignorant.

I'm in the same boat. The fact that, a) the poster was not even at least familiar with the fact that there is a ninja class in Ultimate Combat, and b) that he/she made such an odd comment kind of puts some more perspective on the original idea proposed in the original post though ...

[Ganymede425]

Kain Darkwind wrote:

If your character concept is a barbarian with a dip of sorcerer, you already are doing just fine within the PF multiclassing system, but if you wanted to be a real barbarian/sorcerer, the system tends to let you down.

This is exactly the dynamic that I hoped to address with the proposal.

I think this is due to the fact that the power progression of class levels isn't linear. It is closer to exponential; each level provides more and more synergistic benefit to the class. Sacrificing one level in order to dip in another class is not much of a tradeoff, but sacrificing ten levels in order to get ten levels in another class is a very significant tradeoff. Basically, the benefits of level 11-20 are vastly more potent than the benefits of level 1-10.

[+5 Toaster]

BillyGoat wrote:

johnlocke90 wrote:

This would make martial dips more appealing. Two levels in monk gets you some really nice stuff that would be even better with scaling. Barbarian or fighter dip would benefit similarly. Paladin dip would be much more appealing with smite evil and lay on hands scaling.

I don't think casters would be overpowered from this. Full casters really want that spell progression and even half speed would still hurt.

Consider:

Bard2/Oracle2/Sorcerer2/Summoner2

This character has the bardic performance and spells of a level 5 Bard.

Also, the spells and mysteries of a level 5 Oracle.

The blasting power of a level 5 Sorcerer.

And the eidolon belonging to a 5th level Summoner.

I'll take the slower spell progression for that amount of output and versatility.

don't half your non-summoner levels count for determining your eidolon's abilities as well?