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attributes from a bow are conferred to their ammunition, such as flaming, bane, etc.... Seeking makes the arrows go toward the target whether concealed or invisible if the correct square is chosen.
I don't believe this was intended to only work on thrown weapons but even if the arrows don't gain the condition then the bow has it and it still aims the arrows toward the target, moving slightly to direct the shot.
I think this is a case of over-thinking the rules....
I don't remember anything from the book that would keep the arrow from being treated as having seeking.
The SRD says Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon. I don't see why that wouldn't extend to seeking, distance, ect.
If you confusion stems from the rules for seeking you quoted, I think that was to prevent people from firing randomly into an empty room to detect invisible creatures.
See, my DM is stating, because Seeking doesn't have that lovely little 3 beside it in the enchantment list, it doesn't confer any advantage to the arrows. The description implies it would. Hence the issue.attributes from a bow are conferred to their ammunition, such as flaming, bane, etc.... Seeking makes the arrows go toward the target whether concealed or invisible if the correct square is chosen.
I don't believe this was intended to only work on thrown weapons but even if the arrows don't gain the condition then the bow has it and it still aims the arrows toward the target, moving slightly to direct the shot.
I think this is a case of over-thinking the rules....
I think your DM is just picking nits. It doesn't have any little numbers after it saying its only for thrown weapons, or firearms or anthing, and the description for seeking specifically mentions arrows. There is no logical reason a seeking bow shouldn't confer the properties to the arrow.
If you want to get back at him for being so picky, make yourself a gunslinger with the mysterious stranger and pistolero archetypes.
"This special ability can only be placed on ranged weapons."
Arrows are not weapons, they are ammunition.
Second Chance can "only be placed on bows" yet it still confers the enhancement to the arrow.
If you could not place it on your bow, it would have this next to it:
"6 Only thrown ranged weapons can have this special ability."
My point is that it makes no sense for the Seeking property not to be transferred from the bow like the Second Chance property. Particularly when in the description for Seeking it specifically mentions the behavior of arrows. Therefore, the fact that Seeking doesn't have "3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition" after it is due to an oversight. Otherwise you're paying 8000gp for one arrow.
I appreciate all the input guys, but it looks like unless it is direct from a paizo rep, he won't even give it the time of day. Sadness.
KimeKime, do me a favor. Show your DM this post where I call him a jerk-face.
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This is crazy. Of course Seeking applies to arrows. The property even says " Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby ". Why would it mention arrows if it didn't apply?
And if that doesn't work for him, you can show him that Stigr Harrowstare from Paizo's NPC Codex actually has a +1 Seeking Composite Longbow in his stat block.
So there you have an example of a Seeking Bow right in Paizo's official PRD from one of their hardcovers.
Really?...I mean I'm with BBT on this...please tell us how he explains Seeking works? I mean does he not give you a +1 to damage with a bow since the +1 isn't "technically" on the arrows?
EDIT:Hmm...I am seeing many problems in your future with this GM if THIS is a hard thing for him to understand lol...just keep asking your good buddies of the forums for help when you need it :)
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Ok. Seeing the NPC with the seeking longbow did it. Thanks everyone!
@blackbloodtroll He thought since it was not listed as conferring it on the ammunition, it wouldn't work just on the bow. He said you would have to enchant a batch of arrows to get the bonus. But with the npc having it, he agreed that it works how I thought it worked.
You're welcome!
Yes you can buy seeking arrows. If you look in the UE under ammunition, the table clearly has seeking as an option.
By RAW seeking can be applied to thrown ranged weapons and ammunition only. That's it.
To those that think it an error: That little 3 that dictates that ammunition gains the property from the weapon has been left off in BOTH the Core and Ultimate Equipment. That to me says that they may have left it off by choice and not error.
To those that think it absurd that you can buy the seeking arrows but not the bow: I would point out that this is also true for conductive, cruel, cunning, dry load, ghost touch, limning, planar, and designating greater.
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Yes you can buy seeking arrows. If you look in the UE under ammunition, the table clearly has seeking as an option.
By RAW seeking can be applied to thrown ranged weapons and ammunition only. That's it.
To those that think it an error: That little 3 that dictates that ammunition gains the property from the weapon has been left off in BOTH the Core and Ultimate Equipment. That to me says that they may have left it off by choice and not error.
To those that think it absurd that you can buy the seeking arrows but not the bow: I would point out that this is also true for conductive, cruel, cunning, dry load, ghost touch, limning, planar, and designating greater.
Please see the +1 Seeking Composite Longbow linked in about 5 posts above yours. I can find more instances of Seeking Bows in official Paizo content if you'd like. Like this one. There's also Seeking Bows available in a couple PFS Chronicles. The Brazen Medusa Ranger from Mythical Monsters Revisited has a +2 Seeking composite longbow. The Storm Giant Matriarch from Giants Revisited has a +1 Seeking composite longbow.
Please see the +1 Seeking Composite Longbow linked in about 5 posts above yours. I can find more instances of Seeking Bows in official Paizo content if you'd like. Like this one. There's also Seeking Bows available in a couple PFS Chronicles. The Brazen Medusa Ranger from Mythical Monsters Revisited has a +2 Seeking composite longbow. The Storm Giant Matriarch from Giants Revisited has a +1 Seeking composite longbow.
I completely understand that some paizo products have it. There are also examples of charging and using vital strike among paizo products...including the newly printed NPC codex. That doesn't make it legal. It just makes it a mistake. Usually it's because the writer didn't know the rules (yes it happens a lot), wasn't the same guy who wrote the rule broken, and an editor didn't catch it. It happens a lot and was one of the reasons that charge + vital strike took years to finally kill off. If your GM is happy with an NPC having it as an excuse to give you it, GREAT! I just gave you my opinion on it, as I read it and how I rule it in PFS.
Edit: Even Treantmonk thinks it's legal (in his guides) and lists it as one of the best enchantments for ranged classes. It's a common mistake IMO.
I still don't see where you are seeing that it cannot be put on a bow...it says "ranged weapons" not "thrown weapons only"
If the case it it means "thrown weapons only" then how do things like Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot work with bows???? Both of these feats only say "ranged weapon(s)"...and as someone previously stated...the enchant itself calls out using a bow by mentioning arrows
Point-Blank Shot (Combat)
You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Rapid Shot (Combat)
You can make an additional ranged attack.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Ammunition based weapons are not the only ranged weapons. Seeking is a ranged weapon property that does not distill the property onto the ammunition thus it's only use is on thrown weapons i.e. ranged weapons that do not use ammunition.
There is a little ambiguity here. I can see why some people would think seeking works with bows. Forgetting to put the little 3 was an acceptable reason, even for me, before Ultimate Equipment came out. The fact that it's missing in that book and that they gave us an ammunition table with it included points to me that it is probably what they mean. If that changes, great! But until then I am in the camp of no.
In the end....YMMV (just like a lot of things in this game)
Ok then please explain in your wisdom why they would call out "arrows" at all in the description of the enchant?
The bow itself is aimed...it is the "weapon" not the arrow, you aim the bow at a target with concealment, YOU aren't sure of your aim but the bow IS sure and veers into position so you do not "miss" (suffer miss chance)
It doesn't HAVE to give the property to your arrow...the arrow is not what veers, it flies straight where you aim it, again the "weapon" is the bow, just because it says it "veers" doesn't mean it has to be thrown the bow itself can "veer" from where you are aiming it because the magic allows it to aim correctly
veer
/vi(ə)r/
VerbChange direction suddenly: "an oil tanker that had veered off course".
So right before you shoot the bow changes its direction slightly so that you do not miss
I respect your opinion on the matter, this is my opinion argued the best that I can, please give your counter argument beyond the fact that the table doesn't give the ability to the arrow (since in my given example its not required for it to work)
I know it's not always possible when people have differing opinions on rules but I try to avoid threads that devolve into arguments over semantics. They just end up being huge threads that don't solve anything because no one can decide what the real definition of "is" is.
This will be my last post on this...since you asked nicely for a rebuttal (thank you).
Seeking has to be on the arrow because that is what the book (Ultimate Equipment) shows. If seeking was a factor of the bows aiming and not the arrows veering, then I would not be able to buy seeking arrows...but I can.
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From the PRD..Seeking: Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.
Strong divination; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, true seeing; Price +1 bonus.
You cannot get seeking arrows. ONLY RANGED WEAPONS CAN HAVE IT. Shooting from a bow makes the bow veer slightly towards the target so the user gets the benefit but the arrows technically aren't seeking.
The same wording is in UE. YOU CAN'T BUY SEEKING ARROWS, ONLY A SEEKING WEAPON...arrows aren't a weapon, they are ammunition and are shot from a seeking bow which aim them towards a concealed target.
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Strangely though, in the PRD it lists Seeking as an enchantment in the Ammunition section of magic items....why would it say "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability" if it can also be used on ammo? Seems fairly murky whether or not arrows and bolts can get it but it can definitely be put on bows and crossbows.
