Pulling the idea directly from the Dresden universe. *Yoink*
How do you think it would affect the Pathfinder universe(s) if mundane water acted to break up magic? Clearly the mechanics would need to be fleshed out better, but moving water is more effective and larger volumes the better. Here are a few ideas to start
- Magically created water loses this property, but otherwise functions as water (drinkable, etc)
- Crossing a planar boundary removes this property as well. So no bags of holding full of water to pour over rival spellcasters.
- A few drops splashed don't have a discernible effect. Similarly even the most powerful archmages can drink water without an issue, though I imagine most are careful with that. A bucket thrown at a mage could "wash away" some lesser spell effects and naturally complete submersion in running water would dispel even the most powerful enchantments over time.
- Non-water liquids, such as wine, and highly "muddied" beverages, like coffee, loose enough of this property to be ineffective. Would probably need a chart. For each level away from pure loses potency.
- Any outdoor enchantments would have to be protected from rain.
- Amulets of Adaptation would probably be a lot more popular.
- Underwater civilizations wouldn't have much if any magic. For that matter spells like waterbreathing would be useless.
- A lot fewer casters would be willing to take to the high seas on ships
Thoughts? How do you think this would change Pathfinder or add/subtract from the Pathfinder Universe?
-any magic for underwater exploration would have to be Instant and not permanent. Could add an interesting level to the game. Aquatic adventures would be particularly dangerous.
Where would in such a world all the water have come from? The Elemental Plane of Water couldn't have any portals.
Where would in such a world all the water have come from? The Elemental Plane of Water couldn't have any portals.
For sake of argument lets say that water becomes "anti magic" once on the prime as a normal part of the water cycle.
So immediately after coming elemental plane water isn't anti magic, but eventually will be.
Are we talking any water or just running water? IIRC, the Dresden version is mostly about running water.
But the idea is interesting. Suddenly you've got villains with underwater bases and Swim becomes an important skill.
Running water, though most water is moving. More so when interacted with.
Although running water completely shuts down Dresden's magic, he also has difficulty controlling his magic in a boat on Lake Michigan (range is less and take more concentration). Perhaps you could require a concentration check when casting a spell on a boat or something?
Would you also include the "sunrise deteriorates magical effects" thing?
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Environmental effects that lessen magic somehow - be they water, sunlight or what have you not - would be a thematically interesting way of restricting the power of spellcasters, while actually adding to their mystique.
It'll be hard to balance though.
I think the biggest effect to the Pathfinder universe could be where magic academies are located. Depending on how seriously large bodies of water effected magic, major academies may no longer be located in port cities and be more isolated, in deserts or mountains, etc. You could have cultures existing in marshes or islands that had almost no contact with magic users. It would definitely reduce the proliferation of magic in the world, I think, and could possibly reduce the power of magic users in society (if they have such a common weakness).
Questions:
Would this effect divine magic?
Would this effect magical items?
I really like this idea, but probably b/c I'm such a huge Dresden fan.
I really like this Idea. I'm going to brain-storm some rules. Tell me what you think:
Pure Water
All pure water on the material plane poses anti-magic properties. This does not include extra-planer or conjured water. Extra-planar and conjured water possesses and unnatural sheen and is easily recognized.
Only flowing water erases magic. Stagnant water, like that found in swamps or buckets lacks this property.
Degree of Immersion
The more completely a magic-user or enchantment is immersed in water, the greater the anti-magic effect. A caster or enchantment must be immersed for at least one full round to have any effect. These degrees are used later.
Degree--------------------Example-----------------Value--------caster level reduction
Light Immersion - Rain - 1 - 3
Moderate Immersion - Thunderstorm, waterfall - 2 - 6
Complete Immersion - Underwater in a stream - 3 - 9
Super immersion - Deep under the sea - special - 18
Water vs High level spell
High level spells are harder to wash away. Treat the immersion rating of level 4 and higher spells as one lower. Treat the immersion rating of level 7 and 8 spells as two lower. Level 9 spells are so powerful that they are not effected by water.
Water vs spells
Spells cast while the caster is immersed in water have their caster level reduced. Spells that are cast into pure water only effect their targets at a reduced caster level. This does not effect spell duration, just all other level-dependent variables.
Water vs on-going spells
Water weakens ongoing spells. This works by increasing the rate at which their time runs out. Move the spell along the time scale by a number of steps equal to the immersion value. Permanent spells that are removed from water before they run out become permanent again. Their duration resets after being dry for one day.
1 round -> rounds / level -> minutes / level -> 10 minutes / level -> hours / level -> days / level -> permanent
Water vs magic items
Magic items are just permanent spells. Reduce their caster level like any other spell. Magic items will eventually become disenchanted if they are in water for too long. When a permanent magic item is removed from water, it makes a will save of DC 10 + 1 for each time interval it stayed non-magical. Success means the item starts working again after being dry for a day. Failure means it is now a mundane item.
Level 9 spells and artifacts
When immersed in the depths of the sea or similarly watery places, artifacts and ninth level spells are suppressed after 20 days. But they are never disenchanted.
Ice? Snow? Mist or windborne spray? Would there be ship mages? What about holy water - normaly plain water which is then enhanced/infused with divine energies? For that matter what about Axiomatic or other kinds of infused water?
What precisely does it remove/affect? I never read/watched the Dresden Files (sacrilage since I'm running a dark fey/fairy tale type homebrew and per these forums it's practically required curriculum anyway) so I don't have the point of reference.
Personally I like the idea behind what you're suggesting though. I'm a fan of the show Supernatural and like how they are able to use things like cleaning solvents, salt, running water or what not to protect themselves from certain creatures.
I wouldn't do splashing water - it's not nearly constant enough, it's not a big volume, and it's REALLY abusable. I think rain and rivers should be the starting point.
Also, I wouldn't let it affect magic items. Dresden's enchanted bullet-proof coat doesn't fall apart in the rain.
Under my system, the coat would have taken several days of being in the rain to fall apart. :) Which sort of makes sense. I feel its thematic to submerge a magic item into a river to destroy its enchantments. Cursed items would be less problematic though...
Should consider adding in a Slipper property, whenever a martial class charges over wet ground, there's a chance they trip and end up Prone, that way it won't be just casters who get "boned".
Although running water completely shuts down Dresden's magic, he also has difficulty controlling his magic in a boat on Lake Michigan (range is less and take more concentration). Perhaps you could require a concentration check when casting a spell on a boat or something?
Would you also include the "sunrise deteriorates magical effects" thing?
"Large bodies of water interefere with magic. Casting a spell within 20' of large bodies of water (needs specific definition) requires a concentration check as if vigorous motion.
The sunrise thing could be cool, but is probably out of scope for this mental exercise.
I think the biggest effect to the Pathfinder universe could be where magic academies are located. Depending on how seriously large bodies of water effected magic, major academies may no longer be located in port cities and be more isolated, in deserts or mountains, etc. You could have cultures existing in marshes or islands that had almost no contact with magic users. It would definitely reduce the proliferation of magic in the world, I think, and could possibly reduce the power of magic users in society (if they have such a common weakness).
Questions:
Would this effect divine magic?
Would this effect magical items?I really like this idea, but probably b/c I'm such a huge Dresden fan.
Magic is magic, so I would say the same holds true for divine magic. though water deities would probalby have some sort of advantage or ignore the magic deadening entirely.
I really like this Idea. I'm going to brain-storm some rules. Tell me what you think:
Pure Water
All pure water on the material plane poses anti-magic properties. This does not include extra-planer or conjured water. Extra-planar and conjured water possesses and unnatural sheen and is easily recognized.Only flowing water erases magic. Stagnant water, like that found in swamps or buckets lacks this property.
Degree of Immersion
The more completely a magic-user or enchantment is immersed in water, the greater the anti-magic effect. A caster or enchantment must be immersed for at least one full round to have any effect. These degrees are used later.Degree--------------------Example-----------------Value--------caster level reduction
Light Immersion - Rain - 1 - 3
Moderate Immersion - Thunderstorm, waterfall - 2 - 6
Complete Immersion - Underwater in a stream - 3 - 9
Super immersion - Deep under the sea - special - 18Water vs High level spell
High level spells are harder to wash away. Treat the immersion rating of level 4 and higher spells as one lower. Treat the immersion rating of level 7 and 8 spells as two lower. Level 9 spells are so powerful that they are not effected by water.Water vs spells
Spells cast while the caster is immersed in water have their caster level reduced. Spells that are cast into pure water only effect their targets at a reduced caster level. This does not effect spell duration, just all other level-dependent variables.Water vs on-going spells
Water weakens ongoing spells. This works by increasing the rate at which their time runs out. Move the spell along the time scale by a number of steps equal to the immersion value. Permanent spells that are removed from water before they run out become permanent again. Their duration resets after being dry for one day.1 round -> rounds / level -> minutes / level -> 10 minutes / level -> hours / level -> days / level -> permanent
Water vs magic items
Magic...
All in all I like it, though I have a couple of thoughts.
I wouldn't make extraplanar water and material water visually different. It's not really necessary as anyone with magic can feel the antimagic of the water or just use detect magic. Besides not being able to tell the difference would probably increase the general hydrophobia of casters.
I wouldn't use caster level reductions. It's a wonky mechanic. Perhaps just increasingly difficult concentration checks.
I don't think most magic items should lose their power permanently. The whole volume of the magic item is magical and water only wets the surface. Scrolls would be destroyed and items composed of fibers might be impacted, but anything made of a nonporous material should only ever be supressed.
I would supress permanent magic items if immersed in running water, but not destroy. They'd be fine once they're dried off. Could add to the mystique of powerful artifacts at the bottom of the sea.
I wouldn't do splashing water - it's not nearly constant enough, it's not a big volume, and it's REALLY abusable. I think rain and rivers should be the starting point.
Also, I wouldn't let it affect magic items. Dresden's enchanted bullet-proof coat doesn't fall apart in the rain.
I agree about the splashing water. So a supersoaker would be insufficient.
Dresden's coat doesn't get wet. It's enchanted to prevent it. ;-) However if he left it out in the rain long enough it would eventually have issues. I think that's the case anyway.
Decanter of Endless Water becomes even more essential than it already is.
Decanter of Endless Water becomes even more essential than it already is.
The water conjured from said decanter would not have antimagic properties.
hmm, now bull rushing a wizard into a pond is a viable method of taking them out. I likey.
I'd rather not change the entire casting system. If that was the case I'd just play the dresden system. Simpler is better. Don't want to reinvent he wheel.
Also a bullrushing into a puddle wouldn't get the job done. A vat would do. A river would do better.
I'd rather not change the entire casting system. If that was the case I'd just play the dresden system. Simpler is better. Don't want to reinvent he wheel.
Also a bullrushing into a puddle wouldn't get the job done. A vat would do. A river would do better.
and a bucket of water at the end of every day just to piss off your party wizard.
Casts thread resurrection.
Quite frankly, I think the Saberhagen motif of swords inhibiting magic is more interesting. Apparantly magic becomes more difficult to cast and is lessened whenever blades are out. It changes it's role considerably when fireballing the troops simply isn't an option.
Not familiar with that one. Basically swords have an antimagic aura?
3.5 had a Material that, for weapons, was priced at [4*(Weapon Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost of the weapon. Any Caster hit with it had to make a Fort Save (DC=Damage Dealt) or lose levels of spells equal to the Damage Dealt starting at the highest. If used for Armour it was priced at [2*(Armour Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost and gives SR equal to double the AC Bonus given by the Armour, including Enhancement Bonuses from Magic.
Why would an amulet of adaptation still operate? The barrier of air is a magical effect. Why doesn't the water dispel it?
Is there anything preventing a spellcaster from keeping a tub of water nearby and levitating it onto enemies? Is this considered abuse, or an interesting idea and good tactic?
Are water elementals antimagical? Are water-based creatures, like 3.5's Drowned, antimagical?
Is there any way for creatures to compensate for the loss of magical bonuses to Swim?
3.5 had a Material that, for weapons, was priced at [4*(Weapon Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost of the weapon. Any Caster hit with it had to make a Fort Save (DC=Damage Dealt) or lose levels of spells equal to the Damage Dealt starting at the highest. If used for Armour it was priced at [2*(Armour Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost and gives SR equal to double the AC Bonus given by the Armour, including Enhancement Bonuses from Magic.
Sounds like that, but so cheap you can outfit armies with it.
What about ice?
What happens in a snowy / arctic area?
What happens in a building's top level when blanketed with feet of snow?
What happens in a building made out of ice?
What happens if a creature shapes a sword out of ice and attacks with it?
What about mist and fog?
Why would an amulet of adaptation still operate? The barrier of air is a magical effect. Why doesn't the water dispel it?
Is there anything preventing a spellcaster from keeping a tub of water nearby and levitating it onto enemies? Is this considered abuse, or an interesting idea and good tactic?
Are water elementals antimagical? Are water-based creatures, like 3.5's Drowned, antimagical?
Is there any way for creatures to compensate for the loss of magical bonuses to Swim?
Good question about the amulet of adaptation. I'm not sure on that. It effectively keeps the water away, so I guess every caster who could afford it would have one.
It would basically have to be a barrel to have any significant effect. You need a lot of water to be anything more than an annoyance.
I don't think water elementals would qualify as they are extra planar and estra planar water is not part of the prime material watercycle and thus lacks the antimagic properties.
Magical swim bonuses simply wouldnt work. THey would have to be mundane bonuses, though you could transform yourself permanently to get them.
What about ice?
What happens in a snowy / arctic area?
What happens in a building's top level when blanketed with feet of snow?
What happens in a building made out of ice?
What happens if a creature shapes a sword out of ice and attacks with it?
What about mist and fog?
flowing water. Ice is by nature, not flowing water. Even if you wield an icicle like a dagger the water is still not flowing.
The idea is that the water pulls the magic along with it.
Mist and fog is not sufficient volume to have much affect. Maybe it will cause issues with detection magic, but thats probably about it.
What, if any, is the new interaction between water and Dust of Dryness?
3.5 had a Material that, for weapons, was priced at [4*(Weapon Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost of the weapon. Any Caster hit with it had to make a Fort Save (DC=Damage Dealt) or lose levels of spells equal to the Damage Dealt starting at the highest. If used for Armour it was priced at [2*(Armour Base Cost)]+Masterwork Cost and gives SR equal to double the AC Bonus given by the Armour, including Enhancement Bonuses from Magic.Sounds like that, but so cheap you can outfit armies with it.
The book also expands on Heroes of Battle concepts. Military NPCs are expected to have everything at Crafting Cost and have +1 to +2 CR depending on if they must supply their own food or not.
What, if any, is the new interaction between water and Dust of Dryness?
Same as it is now I assume.